Reply to: Am I really good or are permies really tulipe?

[Spacecadet]

That's not the case. I know plenty of companies that pitch for projects/work and bring contractors in as resource purely to deliver. The permies maintain & manage the resulting systems/processes but the build is performed by contractors.

The other aspect is that some companies find themselves short staffed and only contractors are available. Although typically I try and avoid those sort of contracts as they are a bit "bum on seat"

[MarillionFan]

That has been the theory I have had for the past few years: decent organisations don't get themselves in the position where they need to routinely take on contractors.

That's the reason I tell myself why every ClientCo I have had has been utter tulipe.

That's not the case. I know plenty of companies that pitch for projects/work and bring contractors in as resource purely to deliver. The permies maintain & manage the resulting systems/processes but the build is performed by contractors.

[RichardCranium]

Perhaps we might make a hypothesis that companies who hire contractors tend to have worse permies than those who do not. And that's why they need the contractors...

That has been the theory I have had for the past few years: decent organisations don't get themselves in the position where they need to edit: routinely take on contractors.

At least, that's the reason I tell myself why every ClientCo I have had has been utter tulipe.

[MarillionFan]

I had one contract where I used to bill hours based on how long a mere mortal would have taken to do the work, rather than how long it took me. I didn't think it fair that an idiot should be paid more than me for doing the same work

I do that. I get agreement with the client on how many days it should take. On the whole they base it on the permies or the last crap contractor they had.

I can then double bubble.

[Platypus]

I don't understand what I've done right, but I'll send an invoice; how many hours shoud I bill them for?

I had one contract where I used to bill hours based on how long a mere mortal would have taken to do the work, rather than how long it took me. I didn't think it fair that an idiot should be paid more than me for doing the same work

[Mich the Tester]

I think we're on about different project types here. This was a hardware and OS rollout to 28 sites, so the contractors needed to physically install the servers, install a domain with a load of member servers and a Citrix farm - it was a blank canvas so nothing bespoke for them to need to learn. They had weeks to do this AND work instructions to follow, plus they could feed back up the chain to get these WI's changed if they felt a change was needed. To make matters worse for The Contractor, the Project Managers were contractors too, and Mr F*ckup was a regular visitor with hand overs being delayed and incomplete documentation being the norm.

I think the general perception from the permies was that the contractors would just do the minimum to get their work signed off before wheel spinning out the carpark at 5pm. It was thought that permies would have done a better job as they would be stuck supporting the system after implementation so it would be in their interest, the contractors only had their professionalism to motivate them to do a good job....

Never moan. Always invoice. Best of luck. You'll do just fine.

[DanielAnthony]

Not saying there aren't carp contractors, but bear in mind that even good contractors may find it hard to show their aptitudes to best advantage when having to deal with a bafflingly and needlessly complicated and messy compost heap to which permies may have reduced the state of a project! In fact, in that situation, the better the contractor the harder they find it to tolerate a ropey design and poor code they can't redo from scratch!

Also, long-time permies may have been on the project for years and "grown up" with it, whereas contractors have to pick it up in a month or two.

I think we're on about different project types here. This was a hardware and OS rollout to 28 sites, so the contractors needed to physically install the servers, install a domain with a load of member servers and a Citrix farm - it was a blank canvas so nothing bespoke for them to need to learn. They had weeks to do this AND work instructions to follow, plus they could feed back up the chain to get these WI's changed if they felt a change was needed. To make matters worse for The Contractor, the Project Managers were contractors too, and Mr F*ckup was a regular visitor with hand overs being delayed and incomplete documentation being the norm.

I think the general perception from the permies was that the contractors would just do the minimum to get their work signed off before wheel spinning out the carpark at 5pm. It was thought that permies would have done a better job as they would be stuck supporting the system after implementation so it would be in their interest, the contractors only had their professionalism to motivate them to do a good job....

[OwlHoot]

I have to say that the many contractors I met on that project we're worse than the permie members of staff in the 3rd line support team I worked in. I say this because we had to spend a lot of time helping them sort out problems they had created whilst on site and often had to go back and fix things when parts of the project were forcefully handed over to us.

Not saying there aren't carp contractors, but bear in mind that even good contractors may find it hard to show their aptitudes to best advantage when having to deal with a bafflingly and needlessly complicated and messy compost heap to which permies may have reduced the state of a project! In fact, in that situation, the better the contractor the harder they find it to tolerate a ropey design and poor code they can't redo from scratch!

Also, long-time permies may have been on the project for years and "grown up" with it, whereas contractors have to pick it up in a month or two.

[Mich the Tester]

Sooo...

Someone else did the subconcious consultancy work and knowledge transfer
You followed it but didn't understand it
Now your taking all the credit


I think I work for you at my current client.

cash

[Pondlife]

Or maybe the CUK congregation's intellectual brilliance rubbed off on me in some subconscious fashion.

I don't understand what I've done right, but I'll send an invoice; how many hours shoud I bill them for?

Sooo...

Someone else did the subconcious consultancy work and knowledge transfer
You followed it but didn't understand it
Now your taking all the credit


I think I work for you at my current client.

[ThomasSoerensen]

Erm, I worked as a permie for a blue chip Co which needed contractors in order to roll out a large implementation project (Windows/Citrix skillset). I think we had nearly 200 contractors working on the project and on the last day of the project +1 they were all gone.

I have to say that the many contractors I met on that project we're worse than the permie members of staff in the 3rd line support team I worked in. I say this because we had to spend a lot of time helping them sort out problems they had created whilst on site and often had to go back and fix things when parts of the project were forcefully handed over to us. To be fair, there were one or two who were very good (in terms of being on par with the top permies I worked with) but the majority were paper MCSE's and I really struggled to justify in my mind why they were driving much nicer cars than us!

So to put my money where my mouth is I have just accepted my first contract The clientCo is willing to wait out my 4 week notice period as they feel I'm the right guy for their project. The agent told me at the time there were 4 contractors going for this same role, so I'm pleased I got it. But from what I experienced above, the competition wasn't that great :\

Welcome to the dark side.

[Fred Bloggs]

It could be that the best staff blokes eventually come round to the idea that they'd be better off contracting? I have seen some truly dire staff blokes in my time and just a few really poor contractors.

[Mich the Tester]

So to put my money where my mouth is I have just accepted my first contract

[DanielAnthony]

Erm, I worked as a permie for a blue chip Co which needed contractors in order to roll out a large implementation project (Windows/Citrix skillset). I think we had nearly 200 contractors working on the project and on the last day of the project +1 they were all gone.

I have to say that the many contractors I met on that project we're worse than the permie members of staff in the 3rd line support team I worked in. I say this because we had to spend a lot of time helping them sort out problems they had created whilst on site and often had to go back and fix things when parts of the project were forcefully handed over to us. To be fair, there were one or two who were very good (in terms of being on par with the top permies I worked with) but the majority were paper MCSE's and I really struggled to justify in my mind why they were driving much nicer cars than us!

So to put my money where my mouth is I have just accepted my first contract The clientCo is willing to wait out my 4 week notice period as they feel I'm the right guy for their project. The agent told me at the time there were 4 contractors going for this same role, so I'm pleased I got it. But from what I experienced above, the competition wasn't that great :\

[Mich the Tester]

Mich we all know you target crap companies since they need you most.

Perhaps we might make a hypothesis that companies who hire contractors tend to have worse permies than those who do not. And that's why they need the contractors...

Sounds about right.