Reply to: Travel to another ClientCo site

[cojak]

I have never been paid for travelling time and don't really expect to either. Once contract I did I spent half the time travelling around EMEA but that was expected but no monies were paid for travelling. Nearly all my contracts are based a fair way from home but if I was to factor in travelling time costs then I would price myself out of the market. I see it that I'm providing a service to a company and if I accept their offer then I should incur travelling time costs. Now expenses is another matter, if a client wants me to work elsewhere than my normal daily workplace then I should be compensated as that was never factored in.

WHS

If I sign up for travelling then I negotiate at the start of the contract - expenses are always included outside of the Clients prime site.

If I haven't signed up I would expect a half-day rate (minimum) if travelling on a Sunday. But again that depends on a number of other factors...

If you don't like what the client has offered and you didn't sign up at the beginning for it I think that you could leave the contract with a clear conscience...

[BlackenedBiker]

You would only end up in court if you refused to pay what had been agreed. If you ask your accountant/lawyer/doctor/dentist/architect to travel to Poland for you, I would expect the response to be "fine, but I'll have to bill you for the travel time".

By agreeing it in advance, you solve all the problems you are now facing. From here, your only choice really is to either refuse to work until it is resolved, or chalk it up to experience.

Again, I thought that I had due to previous travel during this contract period

[darmstadt]

I have never been paid for travelling time and don't really expect to either. Once contract I did I spent half the time travelling around EMEA but that was expected but no monies were paid for travelling. Nearly all my contracts are based a fair way from home but if I was to factor in travelling time costs then I would price myself out of the market. I see it that I'm providing a service to a company and if I accept their offer then I should incur travelling time costs. Now expenses is another matter, if a client wants me to work elsewhere than my normal daily workplace then I should be compensated as that was never factored in.

[BoredBloke]

Wow, California, what was it like ??
hang on a minute, aren't in Geneva now ? Tony I know for a fact you have the same skillset as me, how do you manage these gigs.

It must be awfully uncomfortable sitting there with that lucky horseshoe wedged up your @rse

Just 'lucky' I guess.

I did a long stint at GSK and got in with the big noises on the project. because of that I was asked to go to North Carolina and I spent the bulk of the next 6 months out there doing a lot of the data work for the post merger stuff - we were doing a site rationalisation thing before the merger, moving products from the old and expensive plants into the newer ones and pushing the stuff that made no money out to contract manufacture companies. When they merged we had a who raft of new factories and products to contend with. I did a weeks moonlighting at DSM in North Carolina also because the people I worked with at GSK took positions there also. After my role at GSK ended I went to AZ and then was asked to work at Valeant Pharmaceuticals with a lot of the former GSK people I used to work with. But the pound started to rise and I became too expensive for them and a load of political stuff happened which somewaht scuppered the project. We were working for the CEO and we couldn't get their manufacturing head and marketing head to work together. At the end of it I was owed about 30k which I really struggled to get back and at one point I literally ran out of cash as I dropped the car off at LAX.

Yes I'm in Geneva and actually I find it easier getting here than I do getting to London. I've got on top of my costs now. My accomodation comes in at about 800 a month and my weekly flights are about 50 a week. I get about 6k a month after tax which means I see about 5k. So not too bad for an Excel monkey!

[NotAllThere]

As a permie I've worked under a number of regimes. The best was as BlackenedBiker describes.

At one site, the permies initially were allowed to claim hours according to the scheduled arrival and departure of the planes. Then it was cut to simply "travel time is just part of the working day". ( At which point permies stopped getting the early flights, and would leave Friday at 2pm ). Anyway, the consultancy partner were still charging, and getting paid, travel time for their consultants.

otoh, the consultancy partner were part owned by the wife of the project programmer manager, so not altogether surprising.

If it isn't specified in the contract, then you've just got to negotiate with the client.

[TheFaQQer]

Try this, ask your accountant/lawyer/doctor/dentist/architect to travel to Poland for you. Then refuse to pay them for travel time, see how long you spend argueing in court and how much it will ultimately cost you.

You would only end up in court if you refused to pay what had been agreed. If you ask your accountant/lawyer/doctor/dentist/architect to travel to Poland for you, I would expect the response to be "fine, but I'll have to bill you for the travel time".

By agreeing it in advance, you solve all the problems you are now facing. From here, your only choice really is to either refuse to work until it is resolved, or chalk it up to experience.

[rootsnall]

I've always gone for unofficial TOIL to cover this and never had a problem clearing this with PMs. Just talk to them. Once I've clocked up a day of extra travel I'd take a Friday off and the PM signs it off as a standard day.

[EternalOptimist]

I had a job in California and we agreed that the day I would spend travelling would be a working day. I spent a lot longer than the 8 to 10 hours I'd consider as a working day travelling. I just billed it as a normal working day as I was on a day rate

Wow, California, what was it like ??
hang on a minute, aren't in Geneva now ? Tony I know for a fact you have the same skillset as me, how do you manage these gigs.

It must be awfully uncomfortable sitting there with that lucky horseshoe wedged up your @rse

[Spacecadet]

Otherwise what is to stop companies hiring contractors in Mancherster at local north west rates and then asking them to work in London.

Nothing and I've been asked by agents to do that far too often this year

As for the original problem, I think you just need to sit down with the client and explain your position and that you expect to be paid for the extra travel time.

However, the fact that they are now refusing to pay up despite paying the first time suggests that either
a) You weren't supposed to be paid the first time and someones had a right bollocking for it hence the flat refusal now
b) Their position with regards to you has changed, possibly you are now seen as disposable so threatening to leave or not travel for them again will not give you any leverage.

Since your contract doesn't contain anything regarding the excess travel and nothing was discussed or put in writing, all you have is the past behaviour which could have just been a payment in error.

If I was in your shoes I'd put it down to experience and remember to sort out the contract before hand in future

[BoredBloke]

you should have seen my original jibe(the one i deleted).

I was going to ask you how you would react if the second site was in California and it was staffed by beach-babes. I bet you wouldnt be @rsed then about your hours then. Only Backend-Biker gets sent to Poland in winter while the rest of us get sent to Singapore or California


But, as I say, I deleted that because it wasn't fair.


To get back to your original question. You need to suspend or renegotiate your contact. This is a major change and fiddling around with the hours on the original contract does not reflect that.

If you are afraid of upsetting the applecart(and I wouldn't blame you for that) then Northernlad is probably not far off the mark


have two you fcker

I had a job in California and we agreed that the day I would spend travelling would be a working day. I spent a lot longer than the 8 to 10 hours I'd consider as a working day travelling. I just billed it as a normal working day as I was on a day rate

[EternalOptimist]

Stop rolling your eyes they will fall out.

With regards to the your point, I had missed all of that what you were talking about a site at the bottom of the street.

I agree there is more than one way to skin a cat.

However, it is not behaving like an employee to claim for hours actually work. Quite the opposite, surely this is acting like a company

you should have seen my original jibe(the one i deleted).

I was going to ask you how you would react if the second site was in California and it was staffed by beach-babes. I bet you wouldnt be @rsed then about your hours then. Only Backend-Biker gets sent to Poland in winter while the rest of us get sent to Singapore or California


But, as I say, I deleted that because it wasn't fair.


To get back to your original question. You need to suspend or renegotiate your contact. This is a major change and fiddling around with the hours on the original contract does not reflect that.

If you are afraid of upsetting the applecart(and I wouldn't blame you for that) then Northernlad is probably not far off the mark


have two you fcker

[BoredBloke]

If you want to look at what a small business would do, try hiring a local plumber to quote for a job. Then after he's started tell him that the job is now 200 miles away. He's going to ask for this to be taken into account. To me taken into account can be financial in terms of being paid for the extra hours spent travelling or some time off paid. Otherwise what is to stop companies hiring contractors in Mancherster at local north west rates and then asking them to work in London.

[BlackenedBiker]

whoooosh!!
that was the point going right over your head.

my point was that it is YOU who are acting like an employee, fiddling around with the hours on a timesheet.

I was asked to goto Singapore by my client during one particular contract. It was unforseen at the outset and so was never discussed at the initial contract stage.
I offered to suspend the contract for the duration of the trip, made an offer for a fixed price deal, they accepted.

try that approach.

Stop rolling your eyes they will fall out.

With regards to the your point, I had missed your point, weren't you talking about a site at the bottom of the street.

I agree there is more than one way to skin a cat.

However, it is not behaving like an employee to claim for hours actually work. Quite the opposite, surely this is acting like a company

[EternalOptimist]

Are you a businessman EO or a disguised employee?

I was travelling on company business for 10 hours, should my business absorb the cost of this and therefore decrease my hourly rate?

What happens when the ClientCo decides that actually they need me to travel every third week. "Well you were alright with absorbing the costs then".

Try this, ask your accountant/lawyer/doctor/dentist/architect to travel to Poland for you. Then refuse to pay them for travel time, see how long you spend argueing in court and how much it will ultimately cost you.

whoooosh!!
that was the point going right over your head.

my point was that it is YOU who are acting like an employee, fiddling around with the hours on a timesheet.

I was asked to goto Singapore by my client during one particular contract. It was unforseen at the outset and so was never discussed at the initial contract stage.
I offered to suspend the contract for the duration of the trip, made an offer for a fixed price deal, they accepted.

try that approach.

[BlackenedBiker]

Seems this is in two areas I will put my reply in both...

How often are you going to be asked to travel? How are you with the client?
Are you paid hourly or daily? Did they give you options to travel i.e. during work time.

There is not enough information for us to make a reasonble opinion on your situation in my opinion. All we can do is give you examples of our situations.

I used to be paid daily and I was asked to travel very infrequently and a trip to Poland sounds like a bit of an experience. I got on well with client, enjoyed my job and didn't clock watch or act like a typical lazy contractor. In return I got the odd few hours off for dentist and car problems etc

I did the work, booked a normal day and banked a bit of good will that I was pretty sure would be returned when I required it and my reputation stayed good.


Quote:
I put from time I left house until time I got back to hotel on first day of travel and time I left hotel until time I got to my house door on the second day.

Again not enough information. How many hours do you spend travelling normally? It isn't normal to incude travel from your door to a location in a situation like this. It would be a compromise against what you normally commute. i.e. the extra above and beyond a normal day.

Is it any wonder that we get mistaken for disguised employees.

So you suggest that should you claim for travel time to a non-normal point of view, your reputation will be effected. Surely it should simply be a business decision on affordability.