Reply to: We are being watched

[Peoplesoft bloke]

People who are caught bang to rights with CCTV will usually plead guilty thus taking pressure off the police, legal aid, witnesses and the court system to pursue a prosecution.

No quibble with that at all - my point is that it doesn't seem to stop them doing the evil deeds in the first place. I think it's important to understand what these things are for and what they can and can't do.

[minestrone]

I had a ahem....debate with her indoors about CCTV at the weekend. We were watching Police Camera gotcha you slaaaag or something similar - she's all busy extoling the virtues of CCTV. I pointed out that we couldn't watch these crimes if CCTV had eradicated them. I admit the CCTV makes crimes easier to solve, but there ain't a lot of evidence to suggest it stops crime.

People who are caught bang to rights with CCTV will usually plead guilty thus taking pressure off the police, legal aid, witnesses and the court system to pursue a prosecution.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

It didn't start then. Personally I remember well the Jamie Bulger case. When it was solved with CCTV footage, I remember thinking Oh Bugger, that's CCTV here to stay.

I had a ahem....debate with her indoors about CCTV at the weekend. We were watching Police Camera gotcha you slaaaag or something similar - she's all busy extoling the virtues of CCTV. I pointed out that we couldn't watch these crimes if CCTV had eradicated them. I admit the CCTV makes crimes easier to solve, but there ain't a lot of evidence to suggest it stops crime.

[TinTrump]

Very interesting... But ultimately it's because there are enough authoritarians and thick "if you have nothing to hide" twats about along with people who don't give it a second thought.

WHS.

When there are mass demos, e.g. against invasion of Iraq, the Gov trots out the line that is takes hard, unpopular measure because they're (supposedly) 'right'. I'm pretty sure it then justified ID cards, for a number of ever changing reasons, on the basis they were 'popular'.
IMO, any party in government too long loses the plot.
And don't look at me; I never voted for this shower.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

That was one of the three.

The Soham murders meant a summer of the papers going on and on about "think of the children" and "no expenditure is too great if it saves one child from coming to harm". That gave the excuse for national databases.

That Twin Towers malarkey got the ID cards ball rolling.

Very interesting re: Soham and typical of how Civil Servants and Politcians can spend millions addressing the wrong problem. Many people (including a particularly ignorant Labour peer) pointed to the fact that Huntly used different names and extrapolated that into a "need" for the government to tell us all what our name is and charge us a licence fee to use it in future. In fact, Huntley supplied totally bogus references for the job he was given and nobody followed them up - if they had, they would have known something was wrong. Lord Bichard, who chaired the investigation, expressed concerns last week about the cack handed way his recommendations have been applied. But ultimately it's because there are enough authoritarians and thick "if you have nothing to hide" twats about along with people who don't give it a second thought.

[RichardCranium]

I used to think going from the US to the UK was like escaping from prison. Damn, these days it's the other way round? How have you guys let it come to this?

jail
Goddammit or some other Merkinism

You are no good at sockpuppetry, try another approach, please. Pretty please.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Well, if you will vote Labour.

Bollocks - although they are the current worst offenders, other parties (notably the Tories) have supported this kind of tulip. Both Thatcher and one M Howard were in support of ID cards at particular points - now the Tories are officially opposed but only because they have noticed how unpopular ID cards are and how much worse it will get. The real threat is from civil servants including the Police - they love your partisan commments because they can get on with building the surveillance state whilst you're busy slagging Labour.

[RichardCranium]

It didn't start then. Personally I remember well the Jamie Bulger case. When it was solved with CCTV footage, I remember thinking Oh Bugger, that's CCTV here to stay.

That was one of the three.

The Soham murders meant a summer of the papers going on and on about "think of the children" and "no expenditure is too great if it saves one child from coming to harm". That gave the excuse for national databases.

That Twin Towers malarkey got the ID cards ball rolling.

[NotAllThere]

...
England has gone from being one of the most liberal and private countries in the world, to one of the most controlled and spied-upon.

Well, if you will vote Labour.

[Payload Bollington]

I used to think going from the US to the UK was like escaping from prison. Damn, these days it's the other way round? How have you guys let it come to this?

[expat]

Britain seemed alright to me before 1997.

I'm just trying to think what changed in 1997 that has led us to this state....

It didn't start then. Personally I remember well the Jamie Bulger case. When it was solved with CCTV footage, I remember thinking Oh Bugger, that's CCTV here to stay.

And that is what New Labour is especially good at: something brought in for one reason is then used for another, "for the publc good", and no-one argues that there is a higher good served by not spying on us.

And BTW (I say this with more sorrow than spite) it is England, not Britain. I do not have a easy answer as to why this should be - perhaps it is simply the greater population density in England that leads them earlier into this.

[Menelaus]

....And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense....

Cliche?

I wish.

Was considering this at the weekend: the current government and PMandelson in particular are a far greater threat than the Taliban.

[minestrone]

Now, now Minestrone (who sounds very much like Incognito sometimes) will be along soon to say it's all for our own good and if we object we must be Luddites

I wrote the software to do much of it.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Now, now Minestrone (who sounds very much like Incognito sometimes) will be along soon to say it's all for our own good and if we object we must be Luddites

[Lockhouse]

It's a little cliche to say but watching V for Vendetta the other week it seemed worryingly a little closer to a documentary that one would otherwise feel comfortable with.

....And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense....

Cliche?