Reply to: An awful story

[NotAllThere]

40% Christian and 20% Muslim means that Liberia isn't a muslim country? You don't say! ( I did realise that! )

[expat]

The point I was trying (and failing) to make is that a lot of apparently muslim culture isn't, in point of fact, muslim, given that in muslim majority countries, the minority religionists seem to have pretty much the same cultural standards, for example, in treatment of rape victims.

I.e. it's a cultural thing, not a religion thing. It does seem, though, that much of Sharia is a codification of cultural mores.

40% of Liberia is christian or catholic, 20% muslim.

Agree in general with what you are saying. In fact there was a letter in the Times on Friday from Dr Hargey of the Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford, in which he describes Sharia as an anachronistic mediaeval legal system that not only is not required by Islam but actually "violates the transcendent Koran" in many important respects. That is to say, it is a culture and not a part of religion.

Your percentage figures for the Liberian population miss the point a little though: 20% would not in any case make the country a "muslim majority country". In the case of Liberia it has less impact on the country's culture that even 20% might suggest, because of the distribution of population, and the fact that the muslims in Liberia, in the main, live in the north of the country away from the political and cutural centres of Liberia, and close to the Sahel muslims (Mali, Bourkina Fasso, Niger, etc) to whom they are culturally allied. That is to say, without wishing to be racist about them, but they are not essentially Liberians and they are not important participants in the creation of Liberian culture.

Your solcial point is good, but Liberia is in no way an example of it.

[NotAllThere]

Interesting. But Liberia is not a muslim country, their culture is not a muslim culture....

The point I was trying (and failing) to make is that a lot of apparently muslim culture isn't, in point of fact, muslim, given that in muslim majority countries, the minority religionists seem to have pretty much the same cultural standards, for example, in treatment of rape victims.

I.e. it's a cultural thing, not a religion thing. It does seem, though, that much of Sharia is a codification of cultural mores.

40% of Liberia is christian or catholic, 20% muslim.

[xoggoth]

I agree with incognito's comments. I am entirely with the lefty liberals on the causes of crime, the idea that criminals just need to exercise a bit of discipline is one the nuttier ideas of the right.

But regardless of any sympathy we may have, criminals, foreign or domestic, cannot be allowed to ruin the lives of others and immigration and criminal laws need to ensure that, however harsh they may be.

Even more off topic, there is a wider issue of how society functions. Human societies, like ant colonies, should be more than the sum of its people. It seems to me that conflicts in society are more of a factor in crime and low acheivement than poverty. Bangladesh was quite low on crime outside the family until the last decade. Europeans dominated the world for the last 500 years because they organised, despite being less intelligent than Asians according to various studies.

[expat]

It's not necessarily an Islamic thing - it's cultural. In Muslim majority countries where there is a Christian minority, Christian girls have been raped (by Muslim lads) and disowned by their families.

Interesting. But Liberia is not a muslim country, their culture is not a muslim culture.

Or cultures I should say, since you can distinguish clearly between the coastal Americo-Liberians (christian) and the country Liberians ("animist", or none-of-the-above). Of course you also get Mandingo and other muslims, but they are in a small minority, remain separate culturally, and properly belong to the Sahel muslim peoples rather than to Liberian culture.

This is not to denigrate the Mandingo: Westerners like them because they work hard, though usually for themselves rather than for Westerers, and they have a sound understanding of money and a strong family structure. Most taxi-drivers seem to be Mandingo, for example.

[BrilloPad]

Truly shocking. Just as well she was in the USA rather than Liberia.

[NotAllThere]

It's not necessarily an Islamic thing - it's cultural. In Muslim majority countries where there is a Christian minority, Christian girls have been raped (by Muslim lads) and disowned by their families.

It does seem to be part of Sharia law that rape victims are punished. I'd guess that those parts of Sharia were adopted from the culture, and now provide a (very negative) feedback loop.

Interesting article here written by a Muslim scholar.

[expat]

I think this is because her parents now deem her as impure, and thus it will be difficult for them to marry her off for a dowry within the islamic/muslim culture. It's actually quite a common occurrence as I have heard of this type of thing before, but not with a girl of this age, fortunately.

But that was my point: Liberia is not a muslim country. It's like finding this behaviour among English muslims and concluding that the English are harsh to their daughters who are defiled.

I am aware that I may be exhibiting a pro-Liberian christian and animist bias here; at least it's an interesting new prejudice for UK.

[Cyberman]

I agree with you there. So (as you read in the article) does the President of Liberia.

I have lived in Liberia, as it happens, and this is not the way people there behave. On the contrary, the extended family is of supreme importance, wide family contacts are always maintained, and one can never deny a request for help from a family member, even distant. Rejecting a daughter in trouble is so uncharacteristic (I have heard of this happening in America but not in Liberia) that I even wonder if they are mainstream Liberians.

Or perhaps sadly, as Incognito says, when society breaks down so does humanity.

I think this is because her parents now deem her as impure, and thus it will be difficult for them to marry her off for a dowry within the islamic/muslim culture. It's actually quite a common occurrence as I have heard of this type of thing before, but not with a girl of this age, fortunately.

[expat]

The element of this story that hit me the most was the thought of a family disowning their 8 year old daughter when she was absolutely in no way to blame for this crime. I just cannot understand the thinking of these people.

I agree with you there. So (as you read in the article) does the President of Liberia.

I have lived in Liberia, as it happens, and this is not the way people there behave. On the contrary, the extended family is of supreme importance, wide family contacts are always maintained, and one can never deny a request for help from a family member, even distant. Rejecting a daughter in trouble is so uncharacteristic (I have heard of this happening in America but not in Liberia) that I even wonder if they are mainstream Liberians.

Or perhaps sadly, as Incognito says, when society breaks down so does humanity.

[Cyberman]

The element of this story that hit me the most was the thought of a family disowning their 8 year old daughter when she was absolutely in no way to blame for this crime. I just cannot understand the thinking of these people.

[Incognito]

you can take them out of Africa.....etc. etc.

Not quite a PC comment, but certainly socially true. Unfortunately if someone is brought up in a country with no rule of law, you cannot expect them to be 'civilised'.

That's the biggest problem with immigration from certain countries at the moment, i.e. Somalia etc. These people have no respect for the sanctity of life because they were brought up in a country where society was governed by who had the most AK47’s. It's not a slur on skin tone or ethnicity, it's human nature to go feral in a break down in society.

Religion has many evils, but one good point it does have is it bestows the fear of god into its believers. I'm talking more about Sharia here than some Nigerian who's started the 'Worshipful church of our brother Jesus Christ' (donations at the door please)

[Troll]

Mind you ... 9, 10,13 & 14 would appear a tad young by Liberian standards

Fifty-seven-year-old Stephen Dollo, being moved and seduced by Satan the Devil, intentionally jumped on the peaceful five-year-old girl, removed her clothes and committed the crime of rape.

And then Arthur Blackie, a 64-year-old man who was found guilty of raping an eight-year-old girl, Josephine.

Arthur Blackie is a church pastor.
Liberian rapes

[dinker]

Have a look at Haiti, over half the female population has been raped.

[Troll]

Oh yeh, gang rape never happens in the UK

dunno seems to be pretty institutionalised in South Africa - supposedly one of the more "advanced" African states.

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