Reply to: 'No Borders' and their 'Freedom of movement' camp

[Mich the Tester]

The issue certainly is intractable... however it often appalls me that people with useful skills & talents are sent back, while the complete wasters remain here on their benefits.

This is a very big part of the problem. There are lots of people living in turd world tulipholes who could be very productive given half a chance; you only have to visit the average marketplace in West Africa to see people with an enormous talent for entrepreneurship and organisation in very tough circumstances. Take a look inside a car repair garage in India and see the skills of people who seem to repair the irrepairable; add to that the university graduates of countries which despite their poverty or corruption, still seem to run a couple of fine universities; Iran comes to mind.

Trouble is, if those people are allowed to stay and become succesful as many inevitably would, then uneducated numpties in the west, who've had all the opportunities but done nothing with them, will then whinge about 'those foreigners taking my job'. Add to that, we actually need people to do crappy jobs like picking fruit, labouring on farms, inspecting tins and so on, and none of our own people want to do those jobs. So why should an employer be denied the opportunity to employ a motivated person who actually wants to earn a living doing work nobody else wants? Should farmers just accept that they have to leave tens of thousands of pounds worth of, for example, asparagus, to rot in the ground because nobody is prepared to come and pick them? Or should western consumers accept that they'll have to pay more for their food to pay higher wages to farm labourers?

It's an issue where too many people want to have their cake and eat it. You can't have cheap food, cheap TVs, cheap clothes and so on without either;
- exporting jobs to turd world tulipholes where illiterate children work like hell to stitch your pants together while our own uneducated numpties ign on the dole

or

- accepting that there'll be migrants coming here to do the tulipty jobs

or

- get used to stuff being more expensive

[Mich the Tester]

So when all of Africa, Asia, China etc. has immigrated here, we can go to their countries & rule them again as we did before.

I like it.

It's A Cunning Plan.

That's not what I said, and you're demonstrating why it's impossible to hold a sensible debate about migration. Just as people who says they want to stop or control migration are quickly branded fascists, people who say they think the current attempts at stopping migration are doomed to fail, but that some means must be found to allow migration and get the benefits from it have their arguments misrepresented as 'oh so everybody can move here'. The issue is intractable, partly because the people who make the most noise about immigrants lack the intellectual capacity, or are simply to lazy, to conduct a debate without resorting to straw man arguments, excluded middles and arguments based on emotion as opposed to knowledge of the facts.

[Mich the Tester]

Country A sends it's young physically fit men to fight against the Taliban in Country B to "liberate" them, meanwhile the young physically fit men in Country B (that could join Country B's own army or police so Country A can flip off) instead come to Country A to get free benefits and a house.

Well yes, given the choice of getting my arse shot to pieces or skinned alive by the Taliban for a measly wage while using tulipe equipment or sodding off somewhere else hoping to get a job but claiming benefits because they won't let me work, I'd sod off too. And yes, I'd sell crack on the streets to survive. I'd rob the shops, mug people if necessary, and if it really came down to survival I too would probably sell my arse on the streets. I'm not ashamed to say that; it's called 'survival instinct'.

In all this Daily Wailing, NOT ONE PERSON has suggested a solution to the very complex issue of migration (except me, but I was shot down for suggesting we let them get jobs). WHY? Because the people with the loudest mouths and the strongest opinions about 'illegal immigrants' and 'asylum seekers' would appear to be the people with the least knowledge of what's actually going on.

The reality is that life in many third world tulipholes is so desperately awful that people will literally do ANYTHING to get out of there, even if that means doing something awful or criminal. While that's the case, we're going to have to learn to live with migration. I'm not saying 'throw the borders open', I'm saying it's time to get real and start thinking practically about this. Just as one other poster pointed to the idiotic 'war on drugs' which probably does more damage to humanity than all the drugs in the world, the war on migration is a senseless and hopeless lie propagated by politicians who like to make it look as though they're capable of doing something about an intractable issue. Continually fighting against migration instead of finding ways to make it work is probably causing more damage and suffering than all the migrants in the world put together.

[GreenerGrass]

Country A sends it's young physically fit men to fight against the Taliban in Country B to "liberate" them, meanwhile the young physically fit men in Country B (that could join Country B's own army or police so Country A can feck off) instead come to Country A to get free benefits and a house.

[Mich the Tester]

OK so you are a terrified peasant in a third world country regularly abused by the soldiers etc. How do you save the £2k -> £10K you need for the people traffickers?

You don't. You borrow it from the traffickers at an extortionate interest rate on pain of working for them in an illegal sweatshop or smuggling drugs for them, and if you don't repay them they kill your family.

[vetran]

Do the Math

OK so you are a terrified peasant in a third world country regularly abused by the soldiers etc. How do you save the £2k -> £10K you need for the people traffickers?

Of course if you are one of the drug lords or soldiers its pretty easy to get the money?

Which do you think we are more likely to get? Obviously the surge in foreign nationals residing at her majesties pleasure is down to racism.

The curious thing is why so many make it to an island nation via so many safe countries?

By the way friend of ours used to work for a company that provided accomodation for new asylum seekers, even the 5 brat equipped mums who are benefit professionals were jealous of the provisions for these people.

[pzz76077]

The UK will be filled with offspring of foreign nationals soon if this continues anyway: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ion-booms.html

PZZ

[Cyberman]

Mogadishu

Mogadishu again.

Grozny this time


Woman who protested against Iranian election fraud

Australian asylum seekers' detention centre.

Where would you rather spend your days?

Now I'm not saying mass migration is necessarily a good thing , but how does anyone plan to stop mass migration?

Get real; it isn't going to end.

It will be stopped eventually by civil war.

[Mich the Tester]

Mogadishu

Mogadishu again.

Grozny this time


Woman who protested against Iranian election fraud

Australian asylum seekers' detention centre.

Where would you rather spend your days?

Now I'm not saying mass migration is necessarily a good thing , but how does anyone plan to stop mass migration?

Get real; it isn't going to end.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Given the choice of a tin shack in Mogadishu dodging bullets while scraping around for something to eat or selling your arse for crack on the streets of a western city, quite a lot of people would become gay crack whores. While that's the case, migration is going to keep on growing.

Migration cannot be stopped, except by building huge walls, electric fences with automatic weapons and minefields and turning western countries into police states; it's been tried before in Eastern Europe, but of course the walls turned out to be keeping people in instead of out.

We really need to find ways of living with migration and trying to ensure as many people as possible can benefit instead of pretending we can stop people migrating by being nasty to them, building detention centres, putting them on planes to somewhere else or taking away state benefits.

Quite regardless of whether migration is a good or bad thing (and in fact it's neither; it's a very complicated thing), you just can't stop it.

A brilliant summary of the problem and also why it won't get solved - politicians and civil servants have too much too lose and they can rely on Daily Mail bigotry and blind party dogma (eg CyberTool) to help them. Like legalising drugs - the only sane answer - it would be political suicide.

[NotAllThere]

...I've found the hardest thing is getting out of Britain. Last time at the tunnel I had my steering wheel swabbed , asked where I was going, why, how long, and was I carrying any large quantities of cash.

I used to turn up at the tunnel at the same time each week, when I was contracting in Calais. I was stopped by security 2/3 of the time - so they ended up greeting me by name. The swabbing is done to see whether you've been handling explosives. They have a criteria for stopping cars. With me, I just happened to tick the boxes to be stopped.

The cash question is because you are supposed to declare the source of any money worth over €10'000,

Finally, it's cos you is black, innit.

[Mich the Tester]

So your concept of citizenship is the ability to evade border controls?

Did I say that?

[Troll]

Quite regardless of whether migration is a good or bad thing (and in fact it's neither; it's a very complicated thing), you just can't stop it.

So your concept of citizenship is the ability to evade border controls?

[Mich the Tester]

I'd take that over a tin shack in Mogadishu any day.

Given the choice of a tin shack in Mogadishu dodging bullets while scraping around for something to eat or selling your arse for crack on the streets of a western city, quite a lot of people would become gay crack whores. While that's the case, migration is going to keep on growing.

Migration cannot be stopped, except by building huge walls, electric fences with automatic weapons and minefields and turning western countries into police states; it's been tried before in Eastern Europe, but of course the walls turned out to be keeping people in instead of out.

We really need to find ways of living with migration and trying to ensure as many people as possible can benefit instead of pretending we can stop people migrating by being nasty to them, building detention centres, putting them on planes to somewhere else or taking away state benefits.

Quite regardless of whether migration is a good or bad thing (and in fact it's neither; it's a very complicated thing), you just can't stop it.

[sasguru]

It's all moot. As the country is now all but bankrupt and there seem to be no industries in situ to generate wealth, the UK will soon come to be a very unattractive destination.