Reply to: Sainsbury IT back in house

[AtW]

Here are two striking memories about IBM that I have:

1) They sold us "free" DB2 as part of WebSphere package - this replaced perfect Sybase. Once when a simple patch needed to be applied to DB2 our DBA was not allowed to do it - otherwise we will lose "warranty" or support and thus we had to wait for an IBM guy to come in person to site and do it in 10 minutes (run a few commands known to DBA). Great service? No, because I think we were charged 2k GBP for this.

2) Our DBA had a question that required simple Yes/No answer - he could not get it for weeks and email with replies from support was like 10 pages -- totally hillarious shame I did not take it with me when I left.

I don't mind people charging £1k a day or more - what I mind is that companies do £50 worth of work for it and make terms and conditions such that they could milk you AFTER contract is signed. If you don't like it they just withdraw support and you are on your own - something rather dangerous with a POS like DB2.

[s2budd]

I have worked on contracts with IBM, Accenture, EDS and Sun Microsystems.
Talking to other contractors during these contracts and keeping my eyes and ears open has given me the following impression of these big boys.

IBM: Very good at charging a large amount and looking professional. Very good at reports and recommendations. Impressive on a CV.
In terms of actually producing a final product or upgrade whatever. Very poor. In fact more often than not they do not actually do anything.

If in an outsourcing contract then everything will be kept within budget even if everything is falling apart and there is literally no staff or contractors left on site with "the required knowledge". Generally like to hire for low rates.

Accenture: Again low rates for contracts / staff but the staff are young and there are lots of them. Very good at producing lots of code that is inefficient or just rubbish.
Like to panic at the smallest thing. Generally get the job done but needs sorting out later.

EDS: Cowboys.

Sun: Actually very good technically at doing the work and producing a working system. Not very good on the business side (making a profit) Tend to produce a good system with skilled people at the expense of profit and even loose money on contracts because of this.

What do others think.

[mcquiggd]

Right, thats me shopping at Sainsburys from now on then. Their gravy powder is better anyway.

[DimPrawn]

Anyone know if Tescos offshores? I was approached to work on a .Net contract for them in Welyn Garden City about a year ago... not sure what their policy is though....

I think the answer is a resounding YES. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01...sco_tech_jobs/

UK supermarket chain Tesco is to move hundreds of IT support jobs to India. The UK retailer has set up a subsidiary company to provide service and support, which already employs 190 people. Tesco says that by the end of 2005 its Indian operation will have 770 employees in total.

The Times of India reports that 400 of the new jobs will be for software professionals. It also quotes Philip Clarke, director of IT and international operations at the company, as saying that these jobs will be "transitioned out of the UK".

I'd be surprised if even a single UK IT person exists now at Tescos.

[~Craig~]

To be fair its not always the outsourcing companies fault that the contract fails. Most of the time companies either have a delusional view of how outsourcing will help their business or they are piss poor at making decent desicions and keep changing their mind....usually the latter.

Anyone that has been to sainsburys recently will now that they have been struggling to get anything on the shelves for the past 5 years!

[mcquiggd]

Anyone know if Tescos offshores? I was approached to work on a .Net contract for them in Welyn Garden City about a year ago... not sure what their policy is though....

[AtW]

I only witnessed once how Accenture worked and in this task they screwed up the deadlines and our developers had to bail them out - however Assenture DID have lots of people in a big room doing SOMETHING -- typing furiously all days long, I thought it was documentation but when I asked that question after Asses were long gone I could not get an answer what exactly they did in there: but I am sure they have written lots of documents, not sure how valuable though.

Suggestion to use any of the Big 5 companies should be fireable offence.

[DimPrawn]

Useless b@rstards

Send in swarmy slicked back MBA grads to hook client

Swamp client with paperwork

Spend millions to produce a spec which is a about as long as the bible and possibly as ambiguous.

Screw up whole project intentially and coin it on extensions

When after the extension it turns out that millions have been spent producing somethin that the client didnt want, the project get canned

Blame clients for f3ckups

GOTO Send in swarmy slicked back MBA grads to hook client

So who's the idiot there, Accenture or the client.

[sunnysan]

Accentue

Useless b@rstards

Send in swarmy slicked back MBA grads to hook client

Swamp client with paperwork

Spend millions to produce a spec which is a about as long as the bible and possibly as ambiguous.

Screw up whole project intentially and coin it on extensions

When after the extension it turns out that millions have been spent producing somethin that the client didnt want, the project get canned

Blame clients for f3ckups

GOTO Send in swarmy slicked back MBA grads to hook client

[Chico]

Well we've had off-shoring, then near shoring, I suppose its a matter of time before we have on-shoring.

Lets not forget insourcing. Worked on one such project two years ago.

[BlasterBates]

Well we've had off-shoring, then near shoring, I suppose its a matter of time before we have on-shoring.

[mcquiggd]

Accenture uses Indians quite heavily....

As with most consultancies, they have the usual 'happy smiley people' who go in and do the sales pitch, then the legions of wet behind the ears drag-and-drop jockeys go in on 800 a day.

I like the phrase 'near-shoring' - having a 'development center' in Spain etc...
Eventually there will be 'onshoring' companies - where - would you believe it - you actually employ British people in Britain.

[BobTheCrate]

If Accenture can't do it what hope does India have ??

That's not exactly saying very much messiah. It's debatable whether Accenture are any better at all.

Nevertheless this demonstrates yet again that outsourcing was/is much more of a 'suck it & see' exercise than the sound management decision managers and directors would have everyone believe.

If technical analysts and operations managers ran their departments in such a way, senior managers and RCs would have cast them out as incompetant long ago.

[Rebecca Loos]

you have that the wrong way round

[messiah]

lol

If Accenture can't do it what hope does India have ??