Reply to: Cybersharps outplay poker websites

[OwlHoot]

Surely a set of CAPTCHA tests throughout the game will separate the bots from the humans?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captcha

i.e. at random points in a game present a CAPTCHA for the human players to easily pass, meanwhile the bots are generally fooked.

And alternative is MAPTCHA, where the human must answer a simple math test:

http://blogs.crammerz-inc.net/media/...random.irb.png

The problem is you could be running a bot "on the side" so to speak, interactively feeding it all the plays, and using its decisions.

edit: I guess the only solution will be wide-angle high-quality web cams. That would also make the game more like the real thing, but does mean you can't play in your underpants ;-)

[DimPrawn]

It's not an easy thing to break these tools, but if money is involved you have to expect some very smart people to be motivated.

So Atw won't be working on this then?

[d000hg]

Still problematic as this is exactly what neural networks can be trained to do. Any site with a "cha" of any sort needs to offer a "I can't tell what this is, show me another" button, which is great for obtaining training data for a NN.

It's not an easy thing to break these tools, but if money is involved you have to expect some very smart people to be motivated.

[Moscow Mule]

You can do it at login, but even that will piss people off. If you frequently get interrupted - especially by captchas which many people find hard to read - people will simply go to another site.
Besides, there's a whole industry in developing captcha-breaking software.

You need KittenCha, or whatever it was called. Makes you decide if a picture is a kitten or a puppy, apparently quite hard for a computer but pretty easy for a human.

And who doesn't like looking at pictures of kittens & puppies?

[d000hg]

Surely a set of CAPTCHA tests throughout the game will separate the bots from the humans?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captcha

i.e. at random points in a game present a CAPTCHA for the human players to easily pass, meanwhile the bots are generally fooked.

And alternative is MAPTCHA, where the human must answer a simple math test:

http://blogs.crammerz-inc.net/media/...random.irb.png

You can do it at login, but even that will piss people off. If you frequently get interrupted - especially by captchas which many people find hard to read - people will simply go to another site.
Besides, there's a whole industry in developing captcha-breaking software.

[d000hg]

basic probability theory and psychological nous.

HTH

No that's what humans need. To model this in software is a complex task because poker has such a human element. That's where game theory comes in. It's a very hard game to 'solve' - your algorithm has to be able to cope with both very good and very bad players which in itself is not a simple thing.

[sasguru]

Winning at poker against good players requires a lot of complex game theory and other mathematics...

basic probability theory and psychological nous.

HTH

[DimPrawn]

Surely a set of CAPTCHA tests throughout the game will separate the bots from the humans?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captcha

i.e. at random points in a game present a CAPTCHA for the human players to easily pass, meanwhile the bots are generally fooked.

And alternative is MAPTCHA, where the human must answer a simple math test:

http://blogs.crammerz-inc.net/media/...random.irb.png

[d000hg]

Winning at poker against good players requires a lot of complex game theory and other mathematics... not something easy and deterministic. But, as someone said, on the noob tables (the low stakes) you don't need anything as clever.

The point is, even if your bot averages only a pretty conservative £1/hour on 1p/2p table, if you run bots on 10 tables at once, 24 hours a day, then you're up to £240/day... in fact more since that's 365 days a year... it works out as more like £350/day if you average over 48 working weeks per year.

However I wouldn't personally want to use someone else's bot. I'd rather develop an algorithm, force myself to play using it, and test it works before coding it up.

[DaveB]

That really is the key point, you don't want to be pitting your bot against potentially good players in a high-stakes game.

Eventually, it will be a case of who has the better bot!

Eventually, yes, but not yet. Setting up bots takes a lot of time and effort. It's not a case of simply downloading the bot app and running it. It needs to be configured to play the way you want it to play, it needs a specific PC configuration to do it without getting caught and they need constant tinkering to keep up with changes on the poker sites. To run an effective poker bot operation that is going to make money is a full time programming job in itself.

[DimPrawn]

Show us your bots!

[Moscow Mule]

The point of bots is that you can get multiple bots winning small amounts all at the same time (and even when you are in bed). They do take some managing and setting up, but after that...

That really is the key point, you don't want to be pitting your bot against potentially good players in a high-stakes game.

Eventually, it will be a case of who has the better bot!

[Archangel]

I've been playing online poker for a while now, and to be quite honest most players are so dumb you don't need a bot to win. Understand the odds, play a tight game, don't make stupid bets and make the most of it when you get a good hand, and you will win in the medium to long term.

This is basically what the bots do.

It's not a Plan B but I can usually count on winning a hundred quid a week playing for 2-3 hours 2 or 3 nights a week.

The point of bots is that you can get multiple bots winning small amounts all at the same time (and even when you are in bed). They do take some managing and setting up, but after that...

[DaveB]

You are quite probably perfectly happy with the "fun" you get out of it for the "cost" but I don't recommend gambling (in any form) for a living.

Neither do I and thats not what I'm aiming for. I play becasue I enjoy the game, the fact that I can make a bit on the side from it is just a bonus.

[Moscow Mule]

Before I get shouted at - I know some people make a living at gambling... but most don't. It doesn't take Einstien to work out that for every winning hand there must be losers.....

I know a chap who makes a fair bit by hedging on bet-fair. It's pretty unfair if you ask me