Reply to: E, them were the days

[Stan.goodvibes]

But the state and pharma controlled scientific journals obviously have been prevented from publishing that

Well we agree on something.

I am not pro-drugs, or anti-drugs. I just get a bit more animated in drugs threads because its a great subject for making normally intelligent people descend into ignorance and (worse) start quoting from the mainstream press - notoriously biased when it comes to reporting on drugs. So forgive me on the stereotyping, it just happens that way.

Sorry bout your cousin but I will remain sceptical - if one 100mg dose of MDMA can trigger a psychological breakdown I think its safe to say it was going to happen anyway, perhaps the next time he had too much aspirin or codein.

And yes in relation to the nicotine argument - I have had no addiction problems with the drugs i've tried - coke, meth, E etc, but I still struggle with giving up the old fags.

So, govt approved (legal) drugs like alcohol and ciggies are the two biggest killers (and life ruiners) in our society by a long way. Next down the list - legal drugs from big pharma. somewhere close to the bottom of the list you'll find E.

Go figure.

[NotAllThere]

All due respect, but it seems that your argument has been irretrivably distorted by your friend's illness...

Not my friend. Cousin in fact. But I'm not from a close knit family. I just consider him this guy I know who took E once and ended up a nutter. I don't even link his illness with the drug, except I recall reading in some vested interest magazine, like New Scientest, that there is a relationship between taking E and developing schizophrenia, if you have low serotinin levels. It may well be that later studies have shown it to be entirely harmless. But the state and pharma controlled scientific journals obviously have been prevented from publishing that.

None of the pyschoactives I have mentioned, and cyandide not being classed pyschoactive....

Good point, well presented. Can anyone think of psychoactive substance that is fatal in smallish doses, so I can back my argument up? There must be some! Hyoscyamine?

The thing with Heroin though, is that it's a bit moreish.

I find it thoroughly entertaining that people who are pro-drug, consider anyone who proposes a counter argument to have a vested interest. Frankly, I couldn't give a flying **** what you choose to injest, so long as it doesn't affect me or my family. If it was all legalised tomorrow, I really don't care. It seems such a minority interest.

[Dante]

The thing with Heroin though, is that it's a bit moreish.

[AlfredJPruffock]

That seem to be a non-sequitur. Cyanide isn't addictive, but it causes death quite quickly.



I've known plenty of people who've been changed by religion.

None of the pyschoactives I have mentioned, and cyandide not being classed pyschoactive - will do harm mentally nor physically.

In fact pyschoactives have been used to help to cure alcoholcs and given some profound insight - some visions - some the sacrament of Love.


As for Religion - I guess Marx got it about right - Religion is the Opium of the People.

The biggest drug of all - probably.

[Ruprect]

One of the most addictive substances, more addictive than heroin or alcohol, is nicotine.

Normally, your body produces nicotinic acid to stop nerves from firing when they don't need to. When you smoke, your body stops production- it doesn't to, it's getting all the nicotine it needs from the cigarettes. But when you stop the cigarettes, your body still needs nicotine, so your nerves keep firing. And that's why you feel so crap. It takes a while for the body to produce nicotinic acid by itself.

That's the physical addiction. Mental addication doesn't vary from substance to substance. Given the humans can get addicted to hand washing (Obessive compulsive disorder) it seems to me really stupid to suggest that "E isn't addictive".

Now, suddenly stopping alcohol (though not heroin, but I could be wrong), can kill, if you are physically adicated. And suddenly stopping cigarettes won't. But still, AIUI, nicotine is one of the hardest substances to break free from.

E may not be physically addictive. And MOST alcohol addicts aren't physically addicted - but it still ****s up their lives.

All due respect, but it seems that your argument has been irretrivably distorted by your friend's illness.

As i said originally, these threads always polarise views.

[NotAllThere]

...are non-addictive - cause no damage.

That seem to be a non-sequitur. Cyanide isn't addictive, but it causes death quite quickly.

...Religion won't change you...

I've known plenty of people who've been changed by religion.

[AlfredJPruffock]

Notable by its absence in this debate - the pyschoactives - Psylocibe (Mushrooms) LSA (Morning Glory) Mescaline , DMT - none of these are addictive- can be grown and cultivated so that there is no money therefore no criminals involved - are non-addictive - cause no damage.

As to the debate as long as we have Alcohol and Tobacco , both devastating drugs , legal this negates the debate of the other illegal drugs.

Drugs wont change you
Time won't change you
Money won't change you

I haven't got the faintest idea
Everything seems to be up in the air at this time


I need something you change your mind

Politics won't change you
Religion won't change you
Science won't change you

Looks like I can't change you
I try to talk to you
to make things clear
but you're not even listening to me...
And it comes directly from my heart to you...

I need something to change your mind.

[NotAllThere]

One of the most addictive substances, more addictive than heroin or alcohol, is nicotine.

Normally, your body produces nicotinic acid to stop nerves from firing when they don't need to. When you smoke, your body stops production- it doesn't to, it's getting all the nicotine it needs from the cigarettes. But when you stop the cigarettes, your body still needs nicotine, so your nerves keep firing. And that's why you feel so crap. It takes a while for the body to produce nicotinic acid by itself.

That's the physical addiction. Mental addication doesn't vary from substance to substance. Given the humans can get addicted to hand washing (Obessive compulsive disorder) it seems to me really stupid to suggest that "E isn't addictive".

Now, suddenly stopping alcohol (though not heroin, but I could be wrong), can kill, if you are physically adicated. And suddenly stopping cigarettes won't. But still, AIUI, nicotine is one of the hardest substances to break free from.

E may not be physically addictive. And MOST alcohol addicts aren't physically addicted - but it still ****s up their lives.

[minestrone]

Sterotyping again there, I know of many people who have become addicted to taking coke/speed/ecstacy etc, it may be a social addiciton, but without exception each one of them had been on a downward spiral. Depresion anxiety, suicidal thoughts being common symptoms, these not only have an effect on the 'addict' but also the people arround them. Of course there is then the thousands of pound they have wasted on it. Some people can control drug taking, many cannot.

As well as being anti drugs you are now a doctor who can diagnose depresion, anxiety and suicidal tendancies. Can I ask what medical school you graduated from?

E is completely non adictive, coke yes, highly but E no.

[Bagpuss]

these drug threads always break down to two polarities:-

1) Those who have taken drugs and realised that they are mostly harmless and pretty well everything you hear in the media about drugs is false.

2) Those who haven't taken drugs, and trot out the same amusing but sad lines i.e.

• I once heard about this guy who took his first pill and exploded
• I read some research somewhere that said ecstacy may cause long term problems
• I don't need to take drugs to have a good time
• drugs are evil and all drug dealers should be shot

Sterotyping again there, I know of many people who have become addicted to taking coke/speed/ecstacy etc, it may be a social addiciton, but without exception each one of them had been on a downward spiral. Depresion anxiety, suicidal thoughts being common symptoms, these not only have an effect on the 'addict' but also the people arround them. Of course there is then the thousands of pound they have wasted on it. Some people can control drug taking, many cannot.

[NotAllThere]

Sorry? in which country is this where I can get my Doctor to prescribe me cocaine or heroin? I'd like to move there. If anyone has any luck with their local GP in the UK getting a prescription for coke, please let me know the GPs name and location...

If you're in severe pain, you may well be prescribed diamorphine, aka heroin. Cocaine also has its clinical uses. In fact, IIRC, one of the main recreational drugs that hasn't been clinically test is cannabis.

Which seems a bit dumb.

Personally, I couldn't care less whether recreational drugs that are currently illegal were made legal or not. Though I find highly amusing your stereotypical portrayal of anyone who doesn't agree with your "thinking".

I can see if drugs were legalised, that that would increase consumption, which may or may not be a bad thing. If it's a bad thing, it could be considered evolution in action if the takers don't make it to breeding age.

Part of the problem of legalising other drugs than alcohol is that it's well known what the problems of widespread alcohol use are. It isn't well known, or obvious, that, for example, legalisation of E wouldn't lead to the same or even worse consequences. ( Of course, it's obvious to you that it would make the world a better place, but you're a true believer, so not, in fact, amenable to rational argument - don't feel bad about that, most people are like you ).

btw - it's not that I heard of a guy who took one E and ended up in psychiatric care, it's that I know a guy who took one E and ended up in psychiatric care.

I'll stick to alcohol which has been well used, abused and tested in society for thousands of years.

[Stan.goodvibes]

these drug threads always break down to two polarities:-

1) Those who have taken drugs and realised that they are mostly harmless and pretty well everything you hear in the media about drugs is false.

2) Those who haven't taken drugs, and trot out the same amusing but sad lines i.e.

• I once heard about this guy who took his first pill and exploded
• I read some research somewhere that said ecstacy may cause long term problems
• I don't need to take drugs to have a good time
• drugs are evil and all drug dealers should be shot

and fail to realise that alcohol is a drug, in fact THE most destructive drug in our society by a factor of about 1000% over all the other illegal drugs combined. Quote me a real story of a life messed up by drugs and I'll show you a hundred of those messed up by alcohol. Or 10 of lives ruined by addiction to prescription drugs.

If you've ever been drunk you have abused a recreactional drug, and in the process killed off about the same amount of brain cells as I did by taking one pill.

And al least clubbers as a rule don't have a really unattractive beer belly!

[minestrone]

If they decided to give out charlie on prescription half a million people would be taking Monday morning off to see the doctor.

[Stan.goodvibes]

given that cocaine and heroin are manufactured by big pharma, and are available on prescription?

Sorry? in which country is this where I can get my Doctor to prescribe me cocaine or heroin? I'd like to move there. If anyone has any luck with their local GP in the UK getting a prescription for coke, please let me know the GPs name and location...

[Stan.goodvibes]

Presentation of stats does mislead, however. And as for the rest...

In Switzerland, if you want drugs, register as an addict and you can buy from the government.

Result - low drug related crime, high level of drug abuse.

Really? I thought backing up your points with REAL stats gave them some validity, unlike 'I heard about this guy once who took E once and went into a coma and died'.

In Holland after they legalised marijuana the average age of heroin addicts went from 23 to 33 i.e. less young people were getting hooked on heroin. The only drug problem Holland has now is with the drug tourists.

Put 2 and 2 together and come up with the right answer: Why do the countries with the strictest drug laws have the biggest drug problem?