Reply to: Proof: the police are not a bunch of pie eating racists

[Incognito]

Sorry, how does a thread on a copper getting sacked for wearing a BNP badge turn into an anti-muslim rant?

I agree most of those cases don't seem quite right. What seems even less right is your thinly disguised prejudice, and amazing recall of particular cases involving muslims in general ...

I never said ban the BNP. I agree with what Nick said - there's no place for it in the police. Clearly someone who's a supporter of the BNP's impartiality is seriously in question. Quite simply any arrest of a minority group that a BNP sympathiser makes is in question, even if he is impartial that still creates obstacles to him doing his job, and equally is unacceptable to minority groups in Britain.

It's pointing out discrepancies in Police and the Home Office disciplinary standards. As I said, I'm no BNP supporter, but I abhor positive discrimination.

I think you’ll find I was one of the only posters on here that supported allowing Sharia as an option in mediating through the courts. I’m all for inclusion, but not where you exclude others to achieve it.

The amazing recall is because most of the press made an issue out of these items.

[Bob Dalek]

Isn't racism illegal in the UK? If so, rather than debating the sense of banning people from supporting the BNP, shouldn't we we advocating banning the BNP altogether? How can it possibly make sense for the BNP to be allowed but supporting them to have some stigma?

A quick look at the BNP's policies and mission statement, etc. tells you all you need to know with regard to their being non-racist... all pap, of course, but it's their story and they're sticking to it. Their stance is promotion of the UK's indigenous DNA pool, or something like that; not wiping-out non-indigenous folk. As I have said before, if they ever do get into power, Day 1 will be pure horror for millions and fear for the remainder as Griffin and his loony pals start passing vicious laws: but, we couldn't blame them: they're a known quantity; rather, we would have to look to the previous top 3 parties: they are currently doing nothing at all to tackle the issues that the BNP thrives on: immigration and crap deals for non-immigrants, especially now we're all feeling the pinch. Hitler walked into office with green lights all the way, partly owing to Germany's indigenous stock seeing non-indigenous, or insular, folk do better during times of economic strife. Sooooo easy to stir-up support when everyone's feeling hard done by.

[The Lone Gunman]

Glad to see you all support the democratic process.

The BNP is a legitimate political party. They are legal, their policies are legal.

I support democracy and freedom of speech. As long as the BNP remain within the law I will support their right to exists and their right to hold the ideals they hold.

[d000hg]

Isn't racism illegal in the UK? If so, rather than debating the sense of banning people from supporting the BNP, shouldn't we we advocating banning the BNP altogether? How can it possibly make sense for the BNP to be allowed but supporting them to have some stigma?

[oracleslave]

Muslim/Jewish/Xian (WTF that is supposed to be, 10 clever points for you BGG).

An 'enlightened one' you are not.

[snaw]

I think you will find that any member of any organisation can, theoretically, have issues with members outside of his or her own group.

Eg...A copper belonging the the BNP may have a conflict of interest.

So too would a copper who belongs to the Xian's, Muslims, Jews or whatever.

Also, a copper who is homosexual could have conflicts of interest. Plus a copper who was straight.

Also a copper who is a member of the local Masons.

And a copper who is a member of the local revolutionary tiddlywinks team.

The real issue here is discrimination based on one's personal beliefs and allegiances to others, and applying such discrimination evenly across the board.

Considering the police are meant to be apolitical, there is a deep irony that they are used as a political weapon by their and our political masters.



I'd widen the scope on that above statement, Snaw and say "someone who's associated with either religion or secular ideology has serious questions about their impartiality dealing with the public"

Surprise. Don't agree with that at all.

Comparing someone in the BNP or sympathetic towards them - an organisation founded on racist principles, with someone who is Muslim/Jewish/Gay etc is insulting to people from those groups.

I don't believe that being one of them in anyway compromises their impartiality towards the general public - it is possible, but that would be unusual IMO, and deserving of getting the boot if shown to be true. The police have a 'high standard' to uphold, or at least appear too, and anything which compromises that needs to be addressed.

Being a member, or openly sympathetic to the BNP and working for the police are mutually exclusive IMO, unlike being Muslim/Jewish/Xian (WTF that is supposed to be, 10 clever points for you BGG).

[d000hg]

The Tories aren't founded on racist principles. The BNP are. And I think you need to read my posts again, I'm saying, quite clearly that someone who's associated with the BNP has serious questions about their impartiality dealing with the public. SFA to do with persecution. Unless they're the ones persecuting ...

Lots of Tories have genuine belief that poor people in deprived areas choose to be that way and are ALL lazy benefit sponges. Lots of Labour supporters (take your bog-standard builder etc) really don't like middle-class 'snobs' (like most of us on CUK). Either of those views could affect you as a policeman...

[Diver]

I explicitly stated that a police officer may not be seen to support a political party in public, not that they are barred from holding views of their own in private, and added that a police officer's vote was still their own to cast as they wish. Not at all what you suggest I said.

[NickFitz]

I honestly didn't know that police officers weren't allowed to support a political party or vote

I explicitly stated that a police officer may not be seen to support a political party in public, not that they are barred from holding views of their own in private, and added that a police officer's vote was still their own to cast as they wish. Not at all what you suggest I said.

[SandyDown]

I honestly didn't know that police officers weren't allowed to support a political party or vote

yeh else we'll be a police state -‘literally’ !!

[Diver]

SD FTW!

I'd always assumed it was common knowledge that Police officers are not allowed to express political allegiances, for the very reason that it is an absolute necessity that they be seen to be free of political opinion or bias - otherwise the entire premise that the Police carry out their duties without fear or favour is cast into doubt.



Again, when one chooses to enter upon a career (I would say a profession) which requires one to deal with all members of society without any pre-judgement, but with regard solely to the facts of the matter at hand, then one voluntarily sacrifices one's right to support a political party in public.

Your vote is still your own, but if you accept the privileges that come with being one of Her Majesty's Constables you must also accept the associated responsibilities; and one of those responsibilities is to always act, and be seen to act, without prejudice - which word means, of course, pre-judgement.

It's the price you pay for the privilege of wearing the Queen's uniform and enforcing the Queen's laws.

I honestly didn't know that police officers weren't allowed to support a political party or vote

[Board Game Geek]

I think you will find that any member of any organisation can, theoretically, have issues with members outside of his or her own group.

Eg...A copper belonging the the BNP may have a conflict of interest.

So too would a copper who belongs to the Xian's, Muslims, Jews or whatever.

Also, a copper who is homosexual could have conflicts of interest. Plus a copper who was straight.

Also a copper who is a member of the local Masons.

And a copper who is a member of the local revolutionary tiddlywinks team.

The real issue here is discrimination based on one's personal beliefs and allegiances to others, and applying such discrimination evenly across the board.

Considering the police are meant to be apolitical, there is a deep irony that they are used as a political weapon by their and our political masters.

I'm saying, quite clearly that someone who's associated with the BNP has serious questions about their impartiality dealing with the public

I'd widen the scope on that above statement, Snaw and say "someone who's associated with either religion or secular ideology has serious questions about their impartiality dealing with the public"

[snaw]

I'm sure there are racists who support the Tories too, especially along the "keep immigrants out" line. Personally, I would have no problem if the BNP were banned as being racist... but until then they are a registered political party. It's entirely subjective to decide which parties you can belong to as a policeman.

This discussion isn't about what we think of the BNP - I think we're largely in agreement on that - but about persecution for your support for a political party.

The Tories aren't founded on racist principles. The BNP are. And I think you need to read my posts again, I'm saying, quite clearly that someone who's associated with the BNP has serious questions about their impartiality dealing with the public. SFA to do with persecution. Unless they're the ones persecuting ...

[snaw]

I think it's double standards when an off duty copper is sacked for wearing a BNP badge, yet a Muslim officer was allowed to refuse to guard the Israeli embassy on 'moral' grounds. Or what about the case of the female Muslim officer who refused to shake Ian Blair's hand because it was against her religion.

Then you have the case of the christian evangelists being threatened with arrest for 'hate' crimes for handing out leaflets in a predominately Muslim area of Birmingham and West Midlands police refusing to apologise. How about the Muslim policeman (from the Greater Manchester police force) who was allowed to keep his job after being in a car crash and driving away and trying to cover it up.

Or what about the senior immigration official at the home office who's an activist for Hizb ut-Tahrir (who are a banned organisation by the way)

You can see why the BNP are snapping up Labours old core white working class voter. I don't vote BNP, but I do think they are a legitimate political party and should be treated as such.

Sorry, how does a thread on a copper getting sacked for wearing a BNP badge turn into an anti-muslim rant?

I agree most of those cases don't seem quite right. What seems even less right is your thinly disguised prejudice, and amazing recall of particular cases involving muslims in general ...

I never said ban the BNP. I agree with what Nick said - there's no place for it in the police. Clearly someone who's a supporter of the BNP's impartiality is seriously in question. Quite simply any arrest of a minority group that a BNP sympathiser makes is in question, even if he is impartial that still creates obstacles to him doing his job, and equally is unacceptable to minority groups in Britain.

[NickFitz]

<snip>
...a copper, in general they are discouraged to appear to support any society with a political agendas or parties that can be seen as a political influence...

This is common knowledge and training for police officers, therefore I assume that guy knew supporting and being seen with the badge representing a controversial party is not acceptable (on or off duty) and he did it because he just didn't care or truly believed and supported the BNP, in which case its right to release him of his duty.

SD FTW!

I'd always assumed it was common knowledge that Police officers are not allowed to express political allegiances, for the very reason that it is an absolute necessity that they be seen to be free of political opinion or bias - otherwise the entire premise that the Police carry out their duties without fear or favour is cast into doubt.

This discussion isn't about what we think of the BNP - I think we're largely in agreement on that - but about persecution for your support for a political party.

Again, when one chooses to enter upon a career (I would say a profession) which requires one to deal with all members of society without any pre-judgement, but with regard solely to the facts of the matter at hand, then one voluntarily sacrifices one's right to support a political party in public.

Your vote is still your own, but if you accept the privileges that come with being one of Her Majesty's Constables you must also accept the associated responsibilities; and one of those responsibilities is to always act, and be seen to act, without prejudice - which word means, of course, pre-judgement.

It's the price you pay for the privilege of wearing the Queen's uniform and enforcing the Queen's laws.