Reply to: Sweden

[AlfredJPruffock]

But most people don't.

It is still possible to "make it" in Sweden, if you aspire to do so. There are no rules stopping you (except if you want to BTL) and there is no "culture" stopping you.

But it has to be recongised that even with aspirations, most people don't "make it". So for those that don't, the average for "the rest" is much higher there, than here.

tim

Aye Tim

Well put "But it has to be recongised that even with aspirations, most people "don't "make it". "

Theres room at the Top
They're telling you still
But first you must learn to smile as you kill
If you dont want to be
The Fool on the Hill

[tim123]

So everyone has the same standard of living as everyone else, you all live in regulation housing and abide by a million laws, give all your money to the government, want for nothing, aspire to nothing and no one can be better or worse off than anyone else?

Sounds like communism and you can keep it. I aspire to something more than a grey average.

But most people don't.

It is still possible to "make it" in Sweden, if you aspire to do so. There are no rules stopping you (except if you want to BTL) and there is no "culture" stopping you.

But it has to be recongised that even with aspirations, most people don't "make it". So for those that don't, the average for "the rest" is much higher there, than here.

tim

[tim123]

IME (18 months of living there) Swedes are very happy with their lot.

They like their high tax, high benefit system.

They like the fact that employers are obliged to provide family friendly working conditions and (generally) accept the lower salaries that seems to be the result of this policy. (I would guess that the guarentee of two "lower" salaries is better than one higher one and a partner who can't get a job that fits around child care).

They like the fact that the price of rental accomodation is regulated at a very low level and are prepared to suffer the inconvenience of the long waiting lists that this policy produces, for the longer term benefits. (This is a bugger for job mobility, but once you are "in", you have decent affordable accommodation for life)

They like the weather (um perhaps not!)

tim

[NotAllThere]

Funny old site that one - you a regular on Mothers Against Munchausen Syndrome site then NotAllThere?

Interesting article too, written in 1999 - shame the link to the original no longer works either ...

Nah. I knew there were issues with their child protection policies actually causing harm to children (rather like family courts here), so I just did a quick google for some plausible-sounding "facts".

Sorry no - I am one of the vast herd of ex pat English men living (smugly) in other countries.

And I thought it was just me that was smug.

However I have been amazed by the level of English here.

When I first moved here from France I asked, in a clear and slow way, "Excuse me, do you speak English?"

The answer was always "Yes I do". With the sub text - What! do you think I am thick, not been to school, of course I speak English!

I love it when the tourists come up to, and ask me if I speak English.

I was in Norway once. People behaved embarrassed if they couldn't communicate well in English. Kind of nice.

[bren586]

Are you Swedish, bren?

If so, much respect for your accomplished use of the English language!

Love it!

Sorry no - I am one of the vast herd of ex pat English men living (smugly) in other countries.

However I have been amazed by the level of English here.

When I first moved here from France I asked, in a clear and slow way, "Excuse me, do you speak English?"

The answer was always "Yes I do". With the sub text - What! do you think I am thick, not been to school, of course I speak English!

[bren586]

Also I think the original point was about local government and delivery of services. Mine works well and I am happy with the level of democracy - proportional representation.

Certainly better than the third world hell hole I used to live in waaay up North

[Xenophon]

on the plus side I get to live in a nice place where we have a shortage of scrotes.

Are you Swedish, bren?

If so, much respect for your accomplished use of the English language!

Love it!

[bren586]

So everyone has the same standard of living as everyone else, you all live in regulation housing and abide by a million laws, give all your money to the government, want for nothing, aspire to nothing and no one can be better or worse off than anyone else?

Sounds like communism and you can keep it. I aspire to something more than a grey average.

Of course you aspire to something more than a grey average. You are a contractor!

There is some truth in the grey average, Sweden has the Svenssons. But have you been to any UK housing estate? Little boxes full of little people with no aspirations and bugger all future. Completely lacking in any culture, style or reason for existence. And the UK have 10s of millions of these people. Not sure what the difference is.

I do not fully grasp the mentality of trusting a politician to do your thinking for you (I am, after all, a contractor) and some things still startle me but on the plus side I get to live in a nice place where we have a shortage of scrotes.

One of the sayings that scares me the most in Sweden is "no one gets rich by working". This makes contractors a real necessity so my future is bright.

Not sure where ThomasSoerensen is located but currently Sweden suits me as I have small children.

[Xenophon]

Sounds like communism and you can keep it. I aspire to something more than a grey average.

WHS

[ThomasSoerensen]

So everyone has the same standard of living as everyone else, you all live in regulation housing and abide by a million laws, give all your money to the government, want for nothing, aspire to nothing and no one can be better or worse off than anyone else?

Sounds like communism and you can keep it. I aspire to something more than a grey average.

You got it spot on there.

Hence me not being in that part of the world anymore.

[DimPrawn]

Having lived in Sweden for 8 years I have something of a feel for the place.

The way local decision making differs is that it is backed up with cash.

The first 30% of all my tax goes to the local government (about the size of a county council. Any thing that I earn over this threshold (about 20k pa) is taxed at an additional 20 % and this goes to central government to squander on things that should not concern me (aid to other countries, laws that we do not need, that sort of stuff).

So the guy who I voted for lives a few blocks away and uses the same supermarket as I do. His son goes to the same school as my eldest. In short his decisions effect him just as they effect me (unlike the UK).

Local government takes care of things that we care about locally like schools, hospitals and so on. Central takes care of motorways and national things.

So everyone has the same standard of living as everyone else, you all live in regulation housing and abide by a million laws, give all your money to the government, want for nothing, aspire to nothing and no one can be better or worse off than anyone else?

Sounds like communism and you can keep it. I aspire to something more than a grey average.

[bren586]

Here we go again, George Osbourne, in his speech yesterday made a reference to Sweden as an example of delivery or services,local decision making and choice.(I have heard all that stuff before somewhere methinks)

I cannot recall who it was who has recently hailed Sweden as way forward(Polly Toynbee I think), but I would like to hear some views from any people with vast experience with Sweden, or who live there.

Having lived in Sweden for 8 years I have something of a feel for the place.

The way local decision making differs is that it is backed up with cash.

The first 30% of all my tax goes to the local government (about the size of a county council. Any thing that I earn over this threshold (about 20k pa) is taxed at an additional 20 % and this goes to central government to squander on things that should not concern me (aid to other countries, laws that we do not need, that sort of stuff).

So the guy who I voted for lives a few blocks away and uses the same supermarket as I do. His son goes to the same school as my eldest. In short his decisions effect him just as they effect me (unlike the UK).

Local government takes care of things that we care about locally like schools, hospitals and so on. Central takes care of motorways and national things.

[snaw]

Anti-family according to some:

"A 23-year old Eritrean refugee, raising her two girls on her own, was sentenced to one year's imprisonment for having spanked her youngest daughter, aged six. The children were placed in an orphanage. They spoke no Swedish and thought that the police had taken their mother away and shot her, as the Ethiopian police might have. A stepfather who slapped his two boys, aged 11 and 12, after they were caught stealing, was imprisoned for a year. A young Thai widow who slapped her 14-year old daughter's face was imprisoned for a month, and all four of her daughters taken from her to a foster home"

"The Swedish law is supposed to protect children. But according to Harrold-Claesson, 'the effect on children is devastating: they lose contact with their families and their playmates to be "replanted" in new soil'. She says that 'real abusers are more devious than the parents who discipline their children out of love, hiding nothing'. But the real damage is done by the law itself: 'To fail to discipline a child, not to give it any boundaries, is real cruelty.' In Sweden even sending a child to his room, 'room arrest', is illegal, seen as cruel treatment and deprivation of liberty. "

"the family is principally bad - in Sweden the family does not count'. Through the crazy theories of psychologists, ordinary family relationships are viewed with suspicion. 'One mother I defended was accused of having a "sick symbiotic relationship" with her daughter - they meant that she loved her.' Where parents are unable to cope because of problems like alcoholism or addiction, the social services stop grandparents from taking the children in, on the grounds that they are to blame for the parents' shortcomings - they raised them that way. "

Socialists/communists and (other forms of) totalitarian government do not like parents having control over their children. They believe it is the government's job.

Funny old site that one - you a regular on Mothers Against Munchausen Syndrome site then NotAllThere?

Interesting article too, written in 1999 - shame the link to the original no longer works either ...

[ThomasSoerensen]

salmon candy - wtf? Explain pls.

Ask for it next time you are in IKEA. they will have to get it from the back room, but they will adopt you as a brother.

[NotAllThere]

Anti-family according to some:

"A 23-year old Eritrean refugee, raising her two girls on her own, was sentenced to one year's imprisonment for having spanked her youngest daughter, aged six. The children were placed in an orphanage. They spoke no Swedish and thought that the police had taken their mother away and shot her, as the Ethiopian police might have. A stepfather who slapped his two boys, aged 11 and 12, after they were caught stealing, was imprisoned for a year. A young Thai widow who slapped her 14-year old daughter's face was imprisoned for a month, and all four of her daughters taken from her to a foster home"

"The Swedish law is supposed to protect children. But according to Harrold-Claesson, 'the effect on children is devastating: they lose contact with their families and their playmates to be "replanted" in new soil'. She says that 'real abusers are more devious than the parents who discipline their children out of love, hiding nothing'. But the real damage is done by the law itself: 'To fail to discipline a child, not to give it any boundaries, is real cruelty.' In Sweden even sending a child to his room, 'room arrest', is illegal, seen as cruel treatment and deprivation of liberty. "

"the family is principally bad - in Sweden the family does not count'. Through the crazy theories of psychologists, ordinary family relationships are viewed with suspicion. 'One mother I defended was accused of having a "sick symbiotic relationship" with her daughter - they meant that she loved her.' Where parents are unable to cope because of problems like alcoholism or addiction, the social services stop grandparents from taking the children in, on the grounds that they are to blame for the parents' shortcomings - they raised them that way. "

Socialists/communists and (other forms of) totalitarian government do not like parents having control over their children. They believe it is the government's job.