Reply to: Working day?

[VectraMan]

I never understand why people equate hours with work. It's not unrealistic for a good developer to do something in an hour that a lesser developer who didn't understand what he was doing would take a week over, and then deliver something that was flakey and needed more work down the line. Who would you rather have working for you?

I changed from an hourly to a daily rate on my last extension; partly because I hate the clock watching that goes with being paid hourly, and also because I hate the way an hourly rate effectively penalises you for working hard and being good at what you do.

Unfortunately the full time culture is engrained, and I still find myself hanging around at the end of the day when I know I'm not going to get anything useful done, just because I don't want the client thinking I'm not pulling my weight.

[HYpno27]

As a contract PM I'm paid by the day, and I don't expect any of the people working for me to routinely do those kind of hours.

If you feel that is the way forward, go work for a big consultancy, they'll work you til you drop and go get another one when you've become a sad drunken divorcee with no friends

Every so often you might have to do a longer day or five, but not for face time. Here to deliver the deliverables

Work to live, don't live to work

[tay]

Do these 60 hour workers have a life? I mean what kind of family life must they be experiencing if all they want to do is stay in their male dominated office? Must be pretty damn awful. No friends either I bet.

It always amuses me when people use long hours as some sort of badge of honour. It is quite sad and apthetic really.

And I would tell your manager that you have to leave on time, and if he doesnt like it.. move on. Life is to short.

[ChimpMaster]

Do these 60 hour workers have a life? I mean what kind of family life must they be experiencing if all they want to do is stay in their male dominated office? Must be pretty damn awful. No friends either I bet.

My contract states 35 hours... at an IB... I typically put in about 40 anyway, plus I have 15 hours of travel a week (~3 hours a day). I leave home 6:30am and I'm always home before 6:30pm.

I went contracting to have more time with the family, and with friends. Otherwise I might as well have stuck to my £100k consultancy job where I hardly ever saw either of them.

Like the other poster said, you do in 40 what they do in 60 hours... they must be thick as manure.

[shaunbhoy]

I'm pretty sure you can not be required to work over some number of hours without signing something to that effect. I had to in my last job, I think it's an EU directive but I can't remember if the number is 40, 50, 60,...

I am pretty sure now that you are not technically permitted to work more than a 48-hour week averaged over 17 weeks, even if you sign up willingly. However, nobody seems to check if you overstep the mark. A pretty watertight reason for not doing excessive hours but as someone else commented, depends how strong a bargaining position you are in.

[moorfield]

I'm pretty sure you can not be required to work over some number of hours without signing something to that effect. I had to in my last job, I think it's an EU directive but I can't remember if the number is 40, 50, 60,...

48 hrs I think. Most permies in the UK seem to have to opt out of it. It's only there so the French can give themselves an excuse for long lie-ins and lunch breaks.

[d000hg]

I'm pretty sure you can not be required to work over some number of hours without signing something to that effect. I had to in my last job, I think it's an EU directive but I can't remember if the number is 40, 50, 60,...

[M_B]

It all depends on your negotiating power.

If they need you then tell them where to get off. If they don't, do the extra work, else they'll find someone who can in the long run.

[shaunbhoy]

Tell him that you have discussed his concerns with the HR Department and H&S reps of your Ltd Company (i.e. YOU!) and that they have stated categorically that whilst they appreciate this "Manager's" concerns, due to the Working Time Directive you are unable to comply with anything other than a 48-hour week averaged over 17 weeks.

HTH

[Cheshire Cat]

my contract states 40hrs per week, i work at least 40, and probably about an extra 10 hours a month extra on average. I don't think this is unreasonable. I wouldn't mind sticking in an extra 10 hours a week if it was a one-off, but if it was expected every week, I'd ask for a renegotiation, or simply refuse.

[moorfield]

"Basically I have had the classic line from my manager that as 'professionals', we are expected to work above and beyond the standard 40 hours a week."

You get ths quite a lot from the IBs and especially from pimply upstart PMs being pressurised by their bosses ... But it goes with the territory I think - sometimes you'll be busy and need to work long weeks, other times you won't. But if you're a down-tools / clockwatching kind of contractor you won't last long.

[darmstadt]

In fact PAH has really got to the crux of the issue - do not concern yourself about the perception of being 'Profesional' ( even though IT is not in fact a profession) rather concern yourself about the scope for increasing your hours worked in your Invoice and threby your renumeration - now that is a very Professional attitude - make no mistake.

Next Please !

A professional is a worker required to possess a large body of knowledge derived from extensive academic study (usually tertiary), with the training almost always formalized.

Professionals are at least to a degree self-regulating, in that they control the training and evaluation processes that admit new persons to the field, and in judging whether the work done by their members is up to standard. This differs from other kinds of work where regulation (if considered necessary) is imposed by the state, or where official quality standards are often lacking. Professions have some historical links to guilds in these regards.

Professionals usually have autonomy in the workplace—they are expected to utilize their independent judgement and professional ethics in carrying out their responsibilities. This holds true even if they are employees instead of working on their own. Typically a professional provides a service (in exchange for payment or salary), in accordance with established protocols for licensing, ethics, procedures, standards of service and training / certification.

Sounds pretty much like an IT contractor to me...

[Platypus]

renumeration

remuneration

[AlfredJPruffock]

I've been lucky in that all my contracts so far have been hourly rated. So at least if they want more hours out of me I get rewarded for it.

Even better when approaching a project live date and the numpties in charge realise they've mismanaged it. Don't feel bad at all putting in 90 hour weeks to get them out of the crap, makes for fine reading on the invoice. Wouldn't be anywhere near so keen on a daily rate though.

In fact PAH has really got to the crux of the issue - do not concern yourself about the perception of being 'Profesional' ( even though IT is not in fact a profession) rather concern yourself about the scope for increasing your hours worked in your Invoice and threby your renumeration - now that is a very Professional attitude - make no mistake.

Next Please !

[Platypus]

Basically I have had the classic line from my manager that as 'professionals', we are expected to work above and beyond the standard 40 hours a week. While I work 45-50 I feel this is adequate to do the role but feel that because I am not putting on the 60-70 hours that others are I am being frowned upon.

(1) He's an uneducated tw@t: read this,
http://www.igda.org/articles/erobinson_crunch.php
then these http://etbe.coker.com.au/2007/11/02/...ugh-less-work/
http://positivesharing.com/2006/08/m...t-needs-to-go/

(2) I recall a classic retort along the lines that he should be more worried about the people who need 60-70 hours per week to keep up with what you achieve in 40. Can't find any links.