Reply to: Plastic bags - are they that bad?

[DoctorStrangelove]

You don't say.

Of course Boris The Demented of Downing Street appears to think we're about to sell these around the world:

Back to The Future Mr. Fusion Replica

[BrilloPad]

These people may like to have a say in that

VHEMT

[NotAllThere]

It's been 10 years in the future since the 1950s with no sign of much, if any, improvement on that.

You don't say.

[ladymuck]

...

So who gets to play god?

These people may like to have a say in that

VHEMT

[greenlake]

totally useless packaging around vegetables and fruit for example.

Indeed....

[original PM]

yes, but all those possible candidates in our own solar system, e.g. Mars and Titan, would still eventually perish as a result of our sun going red giant, even if that were some time after the Earth perished. Although there appear to be some candidates occupying the Goldilocks zone of their solar systems, these seem to be out of the range of our current propulsion methods.

There was a science fiction series on the TV in the 60's introduced by Boris Karloff, can't remember the name, was it Out of this World?, where one episode told of a spaceship travelling for many generations to a distant planet. I guess at the moment, this would be the only theoretical way of reaching such planets.

Indeed - so Warp bubbles may carry us faster than light - Big Think is apparently not as far away as you think (although I do have my doubts) so generation ships are the current only way of getting to other star systems - but they have to be huge and we have no real way to get that volume of material into orbit at present.

So - Space Elevator - just go to the 'roid belt and get a rocky asteroid and an icy one, smack them together and then extrude your carbon nanotubes to make a space elevator.

Only problem is we cannot really get to the 'roids nor can we make a carbon nanotube long enough..

So you need anti gravity drive - which also does not quite exist yet.

Ho hum back to the drawing board!

[DoctorStrangelove]

Furthermore, if we can develop controllable fusion (only 20 years away!

It's been 10 years in the future since the 1950s with no sign of much, if any, improvement on that.

roduced by Boris Karloff, can't remember the name, was it Out of this World?, where one episode told of a spaceship travelling for many generations to a distant planet. I guess at the moment, this would be the only theoretical way of reaching such planets.

At the risk of resurrecting the Wig Wearing War Criminal of yore, "For the World is Hollow and I have touched the Sky".

For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky - Wikipedia

Naturally enough the Bewigged One couldn't leave well alone.

With current technology, Project Orion is more or less the only feasible propulsion system.

Project Orion (nuclear propulsion) - Wikipedia

Mind you, it's a tad dirty getting that mofo into orbit.

[JohntheBike]

Ok - even then given that the sun will go red giant in about 4.5 billion years what we actually need to do to save civilisation is to colonise as many planets as possible so that we no longer rely on just one.

Although even then we are will still be fighting the heat death or big rip of the universe.

So what we really need to focus on is ensuring we sue the resources of this planet to ensure that civilisation can continue in areas other than the surface of the earth...

so yes, not polluting your oceans with plastic bags is probably a good thing..

what we actually need to do to save civilisation is to colonise as many planets as possible so that we no longer rely on just one.

yes, but all those possible candidates in our own solar system, e.g. Mars and Titan, would still eventually perish as a result of our sun going red giant, even if that were some time after the Earth perished. Although there appear to be some candidates occupying the Goldilocks zone of their solar systems, these seem to be out of the range of our current propulsion methods.

There was a science fiction series on the TV in the 60's introduced by Boris Karloff, can't remember the name, was it Out of this World?, where one episode told of a spaceship travelling for many generations to a distant planet. I guess at the moment, this would be the only theoretical way of reaching such planets.

[NotAllThere]

Euphemism?

It was coined by Giles Coren, to a) sound like an Euphemism, and b) sound Australianish. Plastic bags in the ocean strangle turtles. Don't be a turtle strangler.

[original PM]

Yes, you turtle strangler.


Your argument doesn't take into account technology. Take wheat yields for example. Most of the increase in wheat yield has come from greater yield per hectare, which has more than tripled since the 1950s.

Furthermore, if we can develop controllable fusion (only 20 years away! ), that, coupled with exploitation of resources in the solar system should keep us good for many many centuries.

True - controllable fusion is the future that's for sure - but I would imagine unless it is a technology given to the world for free it will be stifled and probably unobtainable for many people due to the oil companies not being happy about loosing revenue - also as we have an oil based economy there could be some rather large social shifts surrounding that technology.

And then yes we need to utilise the 'roids etc to get the heavy metals for our batteries etc

[HoofHearted]

Yes, you turtle strangler.

Euphemism?

[NotAllThere]

Plastic bags - are they that bad?

Yes, you turtle strangler.

We have done this before - but to re-cap.

1) The earth is a closed eco system (a big one designed for long term use but closed)
2) A closed eco system can only support so many living things before the balance of the ecosystem collapses.
3) You can only recycle your tulip so many times before there is nothing left to recycle.
4) Therefore the only true way of ensuring long term survivability is to have population control.

Your argument doesn't take into account technology. Take wheat yields for example. Most of the increase in wheat yield has come from greater yield per hectare, which has more than tripled since the 1950s.

Furthermore, if we can develop controllable fusion (only 20 years away! ), that, coupled with exploitation of resources in the solar system should keep us good for many many centuries.

[MasterBait]

How plastic bags were supposed to help save the planet - BBC News

"To be as environmentally friendly as a single plastic bag that is being recycled, a paper bag needs to be used at least 3 times while cotton bags need to be reused 131 times to have the same environmental impact".

Article also points out that plastic bags were designed to be reused. The issue is lazy humans.

So it seems the only way to save humankind is less humans.....

It may take more energy and resources to produce a paper or cotton bag, but it take hundreds of years longer to degrade a plastic bag 100% whereas paper and cotton will quickly decay.
So the whole statement is a bit silly.
Also the pollution problem is not only plastic shopping bags, but also all other stuff made out plastic including the totally useless packaging around vegetables and fruit for example.

[original PM]

generally agreed, but the argument then is about sustaining civilisation, not the planet. If all humans became extinct, and we are told there have been near extinction events in the past, then the planet would still survive and another life form would dominate, just as the dinosaurs did before we even existed.

Ok - even then given that the sun will go red giant in about 4.5 billion years what we actually need to do to save civilisation is to colonise as many planets as possible so that we no longer rely on just one.

Although even then we are will still be fighting the heat death or big rip of the universe.

So what we really need to focus on is ensuring we sue the resources of this planet to ensure that civilisation can continue in areas other than the surface of the earth...

so yes, not polluting your oceans with plastic bags is probably a good thing..

[JohntheBike]

We have done this before - but to re-cap.

1) The earth is a closed eco system (a big one designed for long term use but closed)
2) A closed eco system can only support so many living things before the balance of the ecosystem collapses.
3) You can only recycle your tulip so many times before there is nothing left to recycle.
4) Therefore the only true way of ensuring long term survivability is to have population control.

So who gets to play god?

generally agreed, but the argument then is about sustaining civilisation, not the planet. If all humans became extinct, and we are told there have been near extinction events in the past, then the planet would still survive and another life form would dominate, just as the dinosaurs did before we even existed.