Reply to: Plus ça change....

[vetran]

You got the wrong end of the stick. I'm countering accusations of racism, I don't disagree with any of your points.

Every contractor knows why rates have stagnated or why London boroughs are turning Labour, even if they deny it.

Ah I see.

[TwoWolves]

Ah yes an emotive argument not logic - typical.

The current situation is fermenting unpleasantness, business want cheap workers, governments want workers that will vote for them and neither want to fix the problems.

I'm sure the majority of immigrants are nice people, the ones I know are. However the point is 683k of them are appearing a year and no facilities are being built for them.

You got the wrong end of the stick. I'm countering accusations of racism, I don't disagree with any of your points.

Every contractor knows why rates have stagnated or why London boroughs are turning Labour, even if they deny it.

[original PM]

Ah yes an emotive argument not logic - typical.

The current situation is fermenting unpleasantness, business want cheap workers, governments want workers that will vote for them and neither want to fix the problems.

I'm sure the majority of immigrants are nice people, the ones I know are. However the point is 683k of them are appearing a year and no facilities are being built for them.

Indeed we are back with our bowl of M and M's

100 M and M's in a bowl.

2 of them are poisonous and will kill you.

How many are you going to eat?

[vetran]

How exactly do you manage to balance all this sanctimonious cr*p and being a Contractor in that tiny skull?

You know my car lease company drivers are all recent immigrants from some of the poorest places in the world. I always ask them if they like it here and if they've experienced any animosity. All of them say the people here are very nice, better than anywhere else they've been.

Immigrants come here because it's a good place to live and by and large the Brits are good people. Get over yourself.

Ah yes an emotive argument not logic - typical.

The current situation is fermenting unpleasantness, business want cheap workers, governments want workers that will vote for them and neither want to fix the problems.

I'm sure the majority of immigrants are nice people, the ones I know are. However the point is 683k of them are appearing a year and no facilities are being built for them.

[TwoWolves]

How exactly do you manage to balance all this sanctimonious cr*p and being a Contractor in that tiny skull?

You know my car lease company drivers are all recent immigrants from some of the poorest places in the world. I always ask them if they like it here and if they've experienced any animosity. All of them say the people here are very nice, better than anywhere else they've been.

Immigrants come here because it's a good place to live and by and large the Brits are good people. Get over yourself.

[original PM]

OK explain why for the hard of thinking why we need immigration at the level we are experiencing.

Almost everyone will concede that we need some highly skilled migrants (i.e. world renowned experts not cheap IT people with forged qualifications) I would suggest we need say 100k of those plus we can expect a few family members joining previous immigrants say 100,000. We are seeing 683,000+ coming in.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...t/february2018

We have tried "the we need immigrants because our population is ageing" but I haven't met any of these magic non ageing immigrants.

That's because all the reasons trotted out are bulltulip.

the real reasons are

1) Immigrants will accept lower wages than natives.
2) Immigrants will accept 'poorer' standard living conditions than natives
3) Immigrants are ripe for being new voters - thus dump a load of immigrants in your constituency and give them free stuff - hey presto more votes.

There also needs to be a clear distinction between
1) Profesional people coming into the UK with specific skills and an ability to support themselves.
2) Economic migrants


But it's is not going to change so meh.

[vetran]

Probably.
Well obviously that's what's wanted. It's the hard-of-thinking who presume that lack of government planning means we don't need immigrants. What we need is not less immigration, but a more competent government.

OK explain why for the hard of thinking why we need immigration at the level we are experiencing.

Almost everyone will concede that we need some highly skilled migrants (i.e. world renowned experts not cheap IT people with forged qualifications) I would suggest we need say 100k of those plus we can expect a few family members joining previous immigrants say 100,000. We are seeing 683,000+ coming in.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...t/february2018

We have tried "the we need immigrants because our population is ageing" but I haven't met any of these magic non ageing immigrants.

[vetran]

The answer is yes.

I have a number of friends' and acquaintances who emigrated here, then fecked off elsewhere. A few took a British citizen with them when they left and have gone on to produce more British citizens, who we won't have to pay to get educated and skilled up.

Also everytime myself or anyone with an EU passport leaves the UK we aren't counted out. So it takes a good year or so before it is realised we are no longer in the UK.

They count departing UK citizens as well as previous immigrants leaving, its been that way for years so a delay in counting people out has little effect. This is a net figure, these are extras, they are appearing, they have appeared on a perch......

It is 250K - 500K new people appearing needing homes, hospitals & schools each year. As we aren't building them we are in trouble.

[NotAllThere]

Does this country need to or can it accept an extra 250k people per year on top of normal expected population growth

Probably.

without negatively impacting the lives of the existing citizens of the UK?

Well obviously that's what's wanted. It's the hard-of-thinking who presume that lack of government planning means we don't need immigrants. What we need is not less immigration, but a more competent government.

[SueEllen]

Does this country need to or can it accept an extra 250k people per year on top of normal expected population growth without negatively impacting the lives of the existing citizens of the UK?

If the answer is no then we need to stop/hugely restrict immigration - matters not whether they are from the EU or not.

The answer is yes.

I have a number of friends' and acquaintances who emigrated here, then fecked off elsewhere. A few took a British citizen with them when they left and have gone on to produce more British citizens, who we won't have to pay to get educated and skilled up.

Also everytime myself or anyone with an EU passport leaves the UK we aren't counted out. So it takes a good year or so before it is realised we are no longer in the UK.

[vetran]

Does this country need to or can it accept an extra 250k people per year on top of normal expected population growth without negatively impacting the lives of the existing citizens of the UK?

If the answer is no then we need to stop/hugely restrict immigration - matters not whether they are from the EU or not.

Blooming closet racist!

[vetran]

I put it down to venal incompetence - the greed, cowardice and stupidity of politicians.

Yes, but that is quite different from saying that immigration is bad and immigrants are the cause of the woes. Or even that refugees and asylum seekers are.

Immigration - cause in fact.
Government incompetence - proximate cause.

It's like "All car accidents are caused by cars. Let's ban cars". The existence of cars is the cause in fact. The proximate causes are - drunk drivers, aggressive drivers, etc.

The racism in immigration discussions is in the assumption - voiced regularly here, and seen in Max's leaflet - that immigration is the proximate cause. It really isn't.

You started saying nothing had changed and it was due to racism. I pointed out that the figures from today describe the same situation Mosely & Enoch predicted would result from the much lower level of immigration the UK was experiencing. 50 years later and we have had massive immigration and have these problems and you try to say uncontrolled immigration isn't the base cause.

There is no racism here, but you do like to smear, not discuss. Its a problem that will see the rise of the far right if its not controlled, I have no wish to see that.
If you remove the unmanaged immigration all these issues disappear.

As I say sell uncontrolled immigration to the population as part of your manifesto.

[original PM]

I put it down to venal incompetence - the greed, cowardice and stupidity of politicians.

Yes, but that is quite different from saying that immigration is bad and immigrants are the cause of the woes. Or even that refugees and asylum seekers are.

Immigration - cause in fact.
Government incompetence - proximate cause.

It's like "All car accidents are caused by cars. Let's ban cars". The existence of cars is the cause in fact. The proximate causes are - drunk drivers, aggressive drivers, etc.

The racism in immigration discussions is in the assumption - voiced regularly here, and seen in Max's leaflet - that immigration is the proximate cause. It really isn't.

Does this country need to or can it accept an extra 250k people per year on top of normal expected population growth without negatively impacting the lives of the existing citizens of the UK?

If the answer is no then we need to stop/hugely restrict immigration - matters not whether they are from the EU or not.

[Dark Black]

I'm impressed, reasoned debate in General...

Well done (are you all feeling ok?)

[NotAllThere]

so do I. I have my suspicions. You seem to be using the La-La-La I'm not listening reasoning.

I put it down to venal incompetence - the greed, cowardice and stupidity of politicians.

So we agree a major part of this is the failure to manage immigration & plan for it?

Yes, but that is quite different from saying that immigration is bad and immigrants are the cause of the woes. Or even that refugees and asylum seekers are.

Immigration - cause in fact.
Government incompetence - proximate cause.

It's like "All car accidents are caused by cars. Let's ban cars". The existence of cars is the cause in fact. The proximate causes are - drunk drivers, aggressive drivers, etc.

The racism in immigration discussions is in the assumption - voiced regularly here, and seen in Max's leaflet - that immigration is the proximate cause. It really isn't.