Reply to: November Budget - Stop Public sector IR35 rules coming into the Private sector

[MrMarkyMark]

Hardly the most subtle number plate...

His wife let's him drive her car only on Saturdays

[Andy Hallett]

Hardly the most subtle number plate...

At least you know what car to key now.

[eek]

And agents

Hardly the most subtle number plate...

[Andy Hallett]

I am a little bit out of the game with the new role. But I have a team looking at some different operating models which may pleasantly surprise you. I think we (SThree) have the benefit that the majority of our contractors in the U.K. are generally white collar and STEM.

I’ll think about how I can get your input and share our findings in a confidential way.

[Andy Hallett]

And agents

[jamesbrown]

It really depends on the tractor in question. At the weekends I am awful for using a rented contract 1997 Lamborghini CRONO 574-70, which does not really have much of a roof. After a freak unexpected storm, whilst showing off to a young harlot whilst scavenging the remains of a purple potato field, I am never without a fully functioning strong golf man-brolly.

The larger tractor, permanent and not subject to IR35, is actually three times the power of the Lambo, plus has a cabin sheltered from the elements - but harlots see the Lambo badge, drop top hood, and assume the quality of my spuds is excelling even the most hardy farmhand rival. 70HP can have this effect for a gent.

Real contractors drive a Porsche.

[contractorinatractor]

2) Permietractors who will go on the books or use umbrellas.

It really depends on the tractor in question. At the weekends I am awful for using a rented contract 1997 Lamborghini CRONO 574-70, which does not really have much of a roof. After a freak unexpected storm, whilst showing off to a young harlot whilst scavenging the remains of a purple potato field, I am never without a fully functioning strong golf man-brolly.

The larger tractor, permanent and not subject to IR35, is actually three times the power of the Lambo, plus has a cabin sheltered from the elements - but harlots see the Lambo badge, drop top hood, and assume the quality of my spuds is excelling even the most hardy farmhand rival. 70HP can have this effect for a gent.

[mattfx]

The funny thing is that if agents and contractors actually worked together rather than working against each other both ends would make more money. Rather than all this "who blinks first" bs. On the flipside, contractors would also have to scope projects out properly, write proposals and properly tender for projects. In my opinion, that is the only way you can truly change the cycle; provide a different class of service, more akin to that of an MSP / consultancy.

It's either that or ditch the agents altogether, find a group of fellow skilled workers with complimentary skills and then pay for some lead generation to bring work in. Problem is a lot of that is even more short term and risky than what we do now, and over the long term if you were already billing 400-500 a day you wouldn't actually generate that much more revenue due to the amount of time you'd have inbetween projects.

[bobspud]

Is that an HMRC definition or yours?

Of course you are entitled to your opinion - however HMRC will have a different opinion. That both examples you give above are caught.

You remind me of 2 hitch-hikers in the woods who see a bear coming towards them. One puts on their trainers. The other points out he cannot outrun the bear. The guy with the trainers says he only has to outrun the other guy.

CUK is full of people whose only strategy is to throw others under a bus. And have a good laugh about it.

The bus is coming for you.

No not at all. I just think there are lots of differences and there are models that _EVERYONE_ can adopt to carry on but the message is if you want to look, smell and behave like a permanent member of staff don't be surprised if HMRC want to tax you.

[BrilloPad]

It's not them that is deciding...

Its you.
Do you know your subject area?
Can you call the next wave of ideas and tech?
Can you articulate the good from the fad and tell the non technical clients?
Do you train yourself and invest in new equipment and tools to ride the wave of change?

This is what the professional looks like.

Compare that with:
Turning up wearing clean (enough) clothes is a goal...
I don't really do office politics I just sit in my chair and do whatever the client wants...
Im off to play footy/pub/gym at 5 and that will be the last I think about work
Hope my agent pays me on time

One of these will be heading to an umbrella company soon...

Is that an HMRC definition or yours?

Of course you are entitled to your opinion - however HMRC will have a different opinion. That both examples you give above are caught.

You remind me of 2 hitch-hikers in the woods who see a bear coming towards them. One puts on their trainers. The other points out he cannot outrun the bear. The guy with the trainers says he only has to outrun the other guy.

CUK is full of people whose only strategy is to throw others under a bus. And have a good laugh about it.

The bus is coming for you.

[bobspud]

Who decides who is a professional contractor and who is an amateur? Maybe when HMRC defines that we can move forward.

The thing is that HMRC believe EVERYONE is an amateur.

I saw an article this morning saying that in the budget small print are new rules allowing HMRC to take what money they want when they want it.

It's not them that is deciding...

Its you.
Do you know your subject area?
Can you call the next wave of ideas and tech?
Can you articulate the good from the fad and tell the non technical clients?
Do you train yourself and invest in new equipment and tools to ride the wave of change?

This is what the professional looks like.

Compare that with:
Turning up wearing clean (enough) clothes is a goal...
I don't really do office politics I just sit in my chair and do whatever the client wants...
Im off to play footy/pub/gym at 5 and that will be the last I think about work
Hope my agent pays me on time

One of these will be heading to an umbrella company soon...

[BrilloPad]

Still agree with you. The market should / will fragment into:

1) professional contractors, delivering services, taking risks (getting shafted and being paid late) without hiding behind pseudo employment protections.

2) Permietractors who will go on the books or use umbrellas.

Also please don’t just blame the agencies, look at the clients for using the tax and employment regime as a subsidy for their workforce.

I repeat, professional contractors should see 2018/9 as an opportunity.

Who decides who is a professional contractor and who is an amateur? Maybe when HMRC defines that we can move forward.

The thing is that HMRC believe EVERYONE is an amateur.

I saw an article this morning saying that in the budget small print are new rules allowing HMRC to take what money they want when they want it.

[bobspud]

Still agree with you. The market should / will fragment into:

1) professional contractors, delivering services, taking risks (getting shafted and being paid late) without hiding behind pseudo employment protections.

2) Permietractors who will go on the books or use umbrellas.

Also please don’t just blame the agencies, look at the clients for using the tax and employment regime as a subsidy for their workforce.

I repeat, professional contractors should see 2018/9 as an opportunity.

I absolutely agree with this but we have a bit of a problem.

The Professional IT guys need a new animal to help them. We can't use traditional agencies any more because they have more or less ruined the contractor's USP by telling the client that they supply staff that are contingent and so 550 a day is a going rate for an X and so on. (and the tax system is subsidising this)

The actual true rate for someone that is on 550 should really be around £7-900+ this covers full and proper taxation and allows for enough money to save for bench time and pay for expenses. Oh and a profit at the end.

I think we need a new model that focuses on front end sales as a service with a salesmen that can sell a solution and contractors paying for their sales function as a percentage of the sale and probably more bids work.

Contractors are going to need to get together as co-operatives to cover the work and much more business thinking will be needed.

This rolls back to the point you made about fragmentation of the market.

[Andy Hallett]

All great fun, but totally wrong.

We should be emphasising that we are suppliers of knowledge and skills, operating in the exact same way as any other business and engaged on a B2B basis, making all this tulip about "we're not employees" totally unnecessary. Even Andy Hallett agreed with me on that point.

Sadly it's the agencies that have got us into this position by selling us as temporary workers under their control. That is what needs to be broken.

Still agree with you. The market should / will fragment into:

1) professional contractors, delivering services, taking risks (getting shafted and being paid late) without hiding behind pseudo employment protections.

2) Permietractors who will go on the books or use umbrellas.

Also please don’t just blame the agencies, look at the clients for using the tax and employment regime as a subsidy for their workforce.

I repeat, professional contractors should see 2018/9 as an opportunity.

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

Funny how we're all happy we dodged the IR35 bomb, so came away happy, when in reality we got more dividend tax. I think I see how that one was spun.

Maybe because the IR35 changes had the potential to make a massive impact on everything we do whereas the change in the tax free dividend band will cost us all £225 in extra tax a year.

I know which I can live with.