Reply to: Project Management, do we need it?

[Cirrus]

Some way to go yet, Glasshopper

Hey Clitrus, nice to see you chiming in. Lots of generalizations, no links or detail.

It's like 'your bottom points downwards'. It's like 'do one legged ducks swim round in circles'

You're a highly paid consultant but right now you actually seem only on the early stages of a voyage of discovery. But at least you're thinking about these things.

As a kick starter try

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rapid-Devel...id+development

[woohoo]

Well at least you didn't call him a Kunt.

my typing doh! just a slip of the finger, as they say.

[sasguru]

Hey Clitrus ...

Well at least you didn't call him a Kunt.

[sasguru]

No.

As Fred Brookes taught us 30 years ago, most projects fail because of a lack of real time. Or as Woozy sees it - over optimistic planning/estimates/resourcing.

Thousands of studies have shown that, on average, projects are pitched at a planned speed that cannot be achieved except by non-average teams. In my experience the PM rarely has much practical influence on the timescales, and limited influence on resourcing (eg where vendors are involved or your firm's Shanghai team etc).

On average, projects fail (ie are late and/or over-budget and/or are scope-reduced), and that's because they are unrealistic from the first day, not because the PM is good or bad. PMs help manage the failure and often can conspire with others to make the whole thing looks half decent.

The Mythical Man Month is IMHO the best book on PM ever written, so I agree. I've probably bought about 5 or 6 copies because I always give one away to people who need it.
I agree with you about project failure and real time. problem is the people who decide that sort of thing have not got a clue usually... but that varies from sector to sector.
But the best PMs are influencers too, not just technocrats.
some things are out of control however.

Never worked in the public sector though, does seem full of numpties,so perhaps the failure is a bit of both.

[woohoo]

No.

As Fred Brookes taught us 30 years ago, most projects fail because of a lack of real time. Or as Woozy sees it - over optimistic planning/estimates/resourcing.

Thousands of studies have shown that, on average, projects are pitched at a planned speed that cannot be achieved except by non-average teams. In my experience the PM rarely has much practical influence on the timescales, and limited influence on resourcing (eg where vendors are involved or your firm's Shanghai team etc).

On average, projects fail (ie are late and/or over-budget and/or are scope-reduced), and that's because they are unrealistic from the first day, not because the PM is good or bad. PMs help manage the failure and often can conspire with others to make the whole thing looks half decent.

Hey Clitrus, nice to see you chiming in. Lots of generalizations, no links or detail.

[Cirrus]

PMs are not good or bad; just lucky or unlucky

This accounts for the documented failure of most UK public sector IT projects.

No.

As Fred Brookes taught us 30 years ago, most projects fail because of a lack of real time. Or as Woozy sees it - over optimistic planning/estimates/resourcing.

Thousands of studies have shown that, on average, projects are pitched at a planned speed that cannot be achieved except by non-average teams. In my experience the PM rarely has much practical influence on the timescales, and limited influence on resourcing (eg where vendors are involved or your firm's Shanghai team etc).

On average, projects fail (ie are late and/or over-budget and/or are scope-reduced), and that's because they are unrealistic from the first day, not because the PM is good or bad. PMs help manage the failure and often can conspire with others to make the whole thing looks half decent.

[sasguru]

>25 years in the business, most sectors (software houses, City banks, consultancy, HEOR consultancy) in many sort sof roles (dev, PM, manager, consultant, tech lead) and I've come to the following conclusion:

The 80-20 rule applies:
80% of PMs are poor - in that group some are piss poor, some actively deduct value and are a hindrance, some are chancers, some are fakes.
This accounts for the documented failure of most UK public sector IT projects.

Of the 20% who are competent, about 5% are worth their weight in gold.
What do these 5% have in common? : loads of experience in their sector, always a high EQ as well as IQ, politically savvy, quite often superior technical ability.

[woohoo]

OK, say it's a regulatory deadline. Project X has to be in place, tested, working, signed off by the regulator as compliant within a set period or your client can no longer operate. Are you going to say "nah, mate, I'll do it in my own time at my own pace and if we get shut down, well that's not my problem"?

I wouldn't say that.

I was given a fixed deadline by a client, basically it was lights out if the deadline was not reached. I wanted their venture to be a success and told them I did not think it was possible to meet the deadline. But I could do my best to deliver a sub-standard product that would have to be re-written properly. I then recruited a team of contractors and told them the deal, paid well but it would be all hands to the deck. We all then worked long hours including weekends without holidays and produced a fairly crappy product that worked. It was damn close but I was always honest and upfront with the client.

[woohoo]

You seem to have very easy clients. I almost never have a deadline that isn't arbitrary.

Quite often when starting a project, and I get told to finish by March, and I ask 'which year' they think I'm joking.

I always ask about deadlines that seem to be plucked out of thin air. So far I've seen projects struggle because an MD has decided making a deadline up will focus the development team. Only to wonder why the team produced a pile of crap trying to meet this deadline.

I've seen a deadline for a CRM/Lead Gen system that was pulled out of the air because they didn't want to spend 4k on diaries so wanted the project delivered before they where forced to buy them. 4k was a tiny fraction of the project cost.

If you give me a fixed deadline without a reason I will walk. Life is too short.

oh and to be fair I've always been up front with clients and have never had to walk. You have to be very careful giving out estimates, even if you say it's pretty much a guess - it will be passed onto the board that it's a 1 year project and will cost x amount.

[northernladyuk]

I would probably ask why you have given me an arbitrary 6 month deadline.

Time box.

[ladymuck]

I would probably ask why you have given me an arbitrary 6 month deadline.

OK, say it's a regulatory deadline. Project X has to be in place, tested, working, signed off by the regulator as compliant within a set period or your client can no longer operate. Are you going to say "nah, mate, I'll do it in my own time at my own pace and if we get shut down, well that's not my problem"?

[Lance]

I would probably ask why you have given me an arbitrary 6 month deadline.

You seem to have very easy clients. I almost never have a deadline that isn't arbitrary.

Quite often when starting a project, and I get told to finish by March, and I ask 'which year' they think I'm joking.

[woohoo]

When I was a developer, I was able to estimate what time I needed to do my tasks.

Tell me, if you can't estimate the time you need for your tasks how do you know the number of resources that you need?

Imagine that you need to set up a new Telecom operator (or whatever you need to implement) and you only have 6 months to do it, what would you do?

I would probably ask why you have given me an arbitrary 6 month deadline.

[Bee]

I'm a developer with 20 years plus experience and I can tell you that you can't estimate how long a development project will take. You are you lucky if you can estimate how long a small task will take, if you have thousands of small tasks, you don't have a chance in hell.

IT PMs cause project failures from this kind of thinking. Even if all goes well, without the issues you talk about, you can't estimate how long something will take unless you have done the exact same task before and can remember how long it took. This does not happen often.

When I was a developer, I was able to estimate what time I needed to do my tasks.

Tell me, if you can't estimate the time you need for your tasks how do you know the number of resources that you need?

Imagine that you need to set up a new Telecom operator (or whatever you need to implement) and you only have 6 months to do it, what would you do?

[Cirrus]

I spent about 15 years as a RAD developer in Oil, Finance, Engineering, all sorts. I did all the things everybody is talking about - soup to nuts; womb-to-tomb - and never had a project manager near me; never even saw one. As you say, those tasks - those roles - can be performed by 'analysts/programmers'

Then I became a programme manager on multi-million projects with up to a 100 workers and another 100 stakeholders and can tell you that no way in the world would any of that worked in the slightest without a PM presence.

Later, I led a small agile team developing a new web channel for international health insurance. A lot of the technical decision making and product design was essentially done by the tech lead and the BA but I again I can tell you that they were only too pleased that I - as project manager - was dealing with all the crap around nasty vendor relationships, budgeting, estimating, reporting, UAT etc. In this instance I was having public wars with the vendor who was screwing us for no good reason. I eventually got sacked but the team loved the fact that I was fighting for them. They couldn't afford to do it. They were all permies. But as a PM I was expendable. PMs get hired and fired almost as often as football managers. (the project was a success and I had a damn good leaving do)

So you're right. And you're wrong. There is no one answer to your question.

Personally I think most PMs are a waste of space but I empathise: it's a crappy, thankless job but everyone wants somebody to take the blame for everything and cope with being 24X7 shafted.