Reply to: Oh dear seems the German Police are over reacting

[ECommerceConsultant]

I live in Germany, and the events of last year's New Years eve were absolutely shocking to all people in Germany.

I was out on New Year's eve, and I was in my city's main train station, and it packed with migrants - all hanging in groups, behaving badly, running around, shouting, setting off fireworks in the station. As we walked by them, we were nervous due to what happened last year...but the police presence was very big, all with clearly visible weapons, the visual deterrent seemed to have worked. There is more CCTV as well now.

Germany was such a trusting safe nation, but now they've had to change their strategy due to everything that has happened, and to be able to manage over a million people of unknown backgrounds arriving in the country.

I'm glad to be honest, that there has been an increase in stop and search. It's precisely what brought the Berlin Christmas terrorist down in Italy.

[original PM]

Not an answer. Not sure supplying statistics and asking questions counts as a rant, labeling however does suggest you are unable to debate.





oops the figures don't quite agree with your racist judge / CPS theory.

Now there are studies that compare sentencing as a broad brush which suggest this might be the case, what they don't compare is the severity of the crime. However I can't see how the Racist Judge would get away with it as someone would spot it pretty quickly and it would be dealt with. The tag "Institutional racism" scares the hell out of most public organisations.

If however there is really a disparity then it should be identified & fixed.

As I say Body cameras are great, I look forward to the racist Police being prosecuted and the false accusations from suspects being routed out. As usual there are two sides to each story. Accusations of hidden Police Brutality based on the USA are hardly relevant to British policing.

It would be good - at least it will stop Laqueesha screaming he 'didn do nuffink' if it is all on camera.

[shaunbhoy]

This is why I was so excited about the Police being issued with body cameras.

I wouldn't get TOO excited vetran. In a few short years, the effectiveness of this technology will be largely dependent upon the ability of the EE network to provide sufficient data rates to support it.
And unless there is a sea change in the attitudes of our mobile operators to properly support and maintain their network coverage, the value will be severely degraded.

[vetran]

To answer part of your rant - judges have been found to give harsher sentences to certain ethnic groups and sexes depending on the crime. The CPS has also been found wanting in the same way, while the prison service just deals with what they are given. In fact lots of people see parole board members as lefties.

In regards to cameras - in the US people know to put cameras in their cars facing both inwards and outwards in case they get stopped by police.

Not an answer. Not sure supplying statistics and asking questions counts as a rant, labeling however does suggest you are unable to debate.

Among those remanded in custody, all ethnic groups were most likely to have later
received a custodial sentence. However, White and C&O defendants remanded in
custody at the Crown Court were more likely (72%-75%) to have later received a
custodial sentence than Black, Asian and Mixed defendants (66%-69%). Defendants
from BAME groups remanded in custody were more likely to be acquitted or not tried
later (14%-17%) than White defendants (11%

Overall, in 2014, 243,000 offenders were sentenced – a 22% decline since 2010.
The proportion of ethnic groups sentenced has been broadly stable; mirroring the
trend seen in prosecutions.

oops the figures don't quite agree with your racist judge / CPS theory.

Now there are studies that compare sentencing as a broad brush which suggest this might be the case, what they don't compare is the severity of the crime. However I can't see how the Racist Judge would get away with it as someone would spot it pretty quickly and it would be dealt with. The tag "Institutional racism" scares the hell out of most public organisations.

If however there is really a disparity then it should be identified & fixed.

As I say Body cameras are great, I look forward to the racist Police being prosecuted and the false accusations from suspects being routed out. As usual there are two sides to each story. Accusations of hidden Police Brutality based on the USA are hardly relevant to British policing.

[SueEllen]

Yes it does appear to according to the figures. This is why I was so excited about the Police being issued with body cameras. Imagine if they did unfairly stop someone it could be reviewed with community leaders and if officers were misbehaving then they could be educated or dismissed as needed. Of course it would also support charges of resisting arrest and various offensive behavior from suspects as shared by members of my family and friends who were in the Police.

Note stop & searches are being adjusted to reflect the population

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...0/bulletin.pdf

Figure 4.01

I look forward eagerly to prosecutions of both sides using this technology the Police should be beyond reproach and the Public treated with respect however the Police shouldn't be hobbled because the criminal is a member of an ethnic minority.

Of course I assume all the police action shows cut the bits about the Pigs beating the Tulip out of suspects just because they have funny names or a bit of colour and it never gets mentioned again not even with friends or relatives.

Unfortunately this apparent prejudice also seems to extend to the CPS, Judicial system and prison service because there are considerably more of certain races in the prison population than would be expected based on the general populations ethnic make up. I do wonder how the racists have managed to arrange this?

However I don't remember the UK Police rounding up hundreds of people in one place based on their apparent ethnicity (not the predominant ethnicity of the area) and tweeting about them using what appears to be a racist term. Can you point to any?

Racial profiling may be illegal in the US but you are far more likely to be shot if you are black.

As I said in my original post it seemed like an over reaction from the German Police and not something I condoned, if it happened in the UK the TV would be quite rightly be wall to wall Shami Chakrabati & co decrying the Police & government the granuaid would explode in righteous indignation.

To answer part of your rant - judges have been found to give harsher sentences to certain ethnic groups and sexes depending on the crime. The CPS has also been found wanting in the same way, while the prison service just deals with what they are given. In fact lots of people see parole board members as lefties.

In regards to cameras - in the US people know to put cameras in their cars facing both inwards and outwards in case they get stopped by police.

[vetran]

In the UK, police officers are allowed to search an individual without reasonable suspicion under Section 60 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act. A senior police officer has to authorize the use of this policy in his or her district.

Ministry of Justice statistics show that black and Asian people are a lot more likely to be searched under Section 60 than white people are, which is why numerous British activists have been fighting the law for years. They accuse the police of racial profiling. But in January 2016 the UK Supreme Court ruled that Section 60 was in accordance with the law and did not need to be changed.

Racial profiling exists in the UK even though its not called that although interestingly enough it is illegal in the USA....

Yes it does appear to according to the figures. This is why I was so excited about the Police being issued with body cameras. Imagine if they did unfairly stop someone it could be reviewed with community leaders and if officers were misbehaving then they could be educated or dismissed as needed. Of course it would also support charges of resisting arrest and various offensive behavior from suspects as shared by members of my family and friends who were in the Police.

Note stop & searches are being adjusted to reflect the population

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...0/bulletin.pdf

Figure 4.01

I look forward eagerly to prosecutions of both sides using this technology the Police should be beyond reproach and the Public treated with respect however the Police shouldn't be hobbled because the criminal is a member of an ethnic minority.

Of course I assume all the police action shows cut the bits about the Pigs beating the Tulip out of suspects just because they have funny names or a bit of colour and it never gets mentioned again not even with friends or relatives.

Unfortunately this apparent prejudice also seems to extend to the CPS, Judicial system and prison service because there are considerably more of certain races in the prison population than would be expected based on the general populations ethnic make up. I do wonder how the racists have managed to arrange this?

However I don't remember the UK Police rounding up hundreds of people in one place based on their apparent ethnicity (not the predominant ethnicity of the area) and tweeting about them using what appears to be a racist term. Can you point to any?

Racial profiling may be illegal in the US but you are far more likely to be shot if you are black.

As I said in my original post it seemed like an over reaction from the German Police and not something I condoned, if it happened in the UK the TV would be quite rightly be wall to wall Shami Chakrabati & co decrying the Police & government the granuaid would explode in righteous indignation.

[darmstadt]

The lefties would be quite rightly incandescent if we did that here.

In the UK, police officers are allowed to search an individual without reasonable suspicion under Section 60 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act. A senior police officer has to authorize the use of this policy in his or her district.

Ministry of Justice statistics show that black and Asian people are a lot more likely to be searched under Section 60 than white people are, which is why numerous British activists have been fighting the law for years. They accuse the police of racial profiling. But in January 2016 the UK Supreme Court ruled that Section 60 was in accordance with the law and did not need to be changed.

Racial profiling exists in the UK even though its not called that although interestingly enough it is illegal in the USA....

[original PM]

Is it cuz they is black innit

[LondonManc]

No different to skinheads being targeted by police here 35 years ago because of prior behaviour. If you've had an organised sexassaultathon last year by the north African immigrants, surely they're the safe bet to do it again?

SueEllen will no doubt be able to tell us about reoffending rates.

Granted, they shouldn't be singled out for blanket treatment but I think ze Germans got it right.



With a more suspicious tone....
Merkel's got to try and get re-elected somehow you know!

[shaunbhoy]

I feel I'm doing some good here.

Linky!!!!!

[vetran]

I feel I'm talking Bollox

FTFY.

[NotAllThere]

I feel I'm doing some good here. Making the ignorant actually check their facts before posting and even do a bit of research.

[stek]

Since I'm not German I wouldn't be able to tell you.

If it it's used like N***** or P*** then definitely no.

If it's used like Scot or Yank then it could be.

When I was in Germany the mrs' boss always referred to her African friend (from Mali) as 'Der Affe' - i.e. The Monkey. Nice...

[vetran]

Rich, coming from one whose worldview is informed by the Daily Mail and who displays his deep ignorance and narrow-mindedness on oh-so-many subjects on a daily basis.

ID cards were adopted across Europe after the first world war began, to be able to identify foreigners more easily. Britain never felt the need. A significant reason that the pilot for ID cards in Britain failed was that it was linked to a central government database. In many countries, ID cards are handled locally, or at county level.

Oh dear, you are as usual talking bollocks, rarely is ones username so well chosen. Do feel free to insult & condescend as usual, you are almost good at that.


Identity cards in Britain: past experience and policy implications | History and Policy

The first National Registration was taken during the First World War. The context was a fierce debate raging in the War Cabinet between those ministers willing to consider conscription and those who wanted to continue the policy of voluntarism.
......

Under the National Registration Bill, introduced by the President of the Local Government Board, Walter Long, in July 1915, personal information on all the adult population was compiled in locally-held registers, and identity cards were issued.

British civil servants did not forget the identity card. Plans for a new national register were written into the War Book. On the 29th September 1939, the second National Register was introduced for three specified purposes 'for the duration of the present emergency': co-ordinating national service, national security and the administration of rationing. This time the local registers were backed up by a comprehensive central register held at the Central National Register Office near Southport. Seven thousand transcript books contained details of forty million registrations. Identity cards - folded cards with name, address but not date of birth - were issued.

as you can see both were linked to a central register.


of course the Judiciary saw though a laissez faire retention.

By the early 1950s, the identity card had become a routine part of policing. In 1950, a young man, Clarence Willcock, was stopped in his car by a policeman in North London on suspicion of speeding and asked for his identity card. Like the good Young Liberal that he was, Willcock refused to produce his card. Willcock's argument to the Middlesex magistrates was that the National Register was a piece of wartime legislation that was no longer in force in peacetime. The magistrates disagreed. The Appeal Court not only confirmed the judgement but also gave Willcock an absolute discharge and in his concluding remarks, Lord Goddard, the Lord Chief Justice and soon to be infamous as the hanging judge in Derek Bentley case, strongly criticised the police's use of identity cards:

It is obvious that the police now, as a matter of routine, demand the production of national registration identity cards whenever they stop or interrogate a motorist for whatever cause. Of course, if they are looking for a stolen car or have reason to believe that a particular motorist is engaged in committing a crime, that is one thing, but to demand a national registration identity card from all and sundry ... , for instance, from a lady who may leave her car outside a shop longer than she should, or some trivial matter of that sort,...is wholly unreasonable.

This Act was passed for security purposes, and not for the purposes for which, apparently, it is now sought to be used. To use Acts of Parliament, passed for particular purposes during war, in times when the war is past, except that technically a state of war exists, tends to turn law-abiding subjects into lawbreakers, which is a most undesirable state of affairs. Further, in this country we have always prided ourselves on the good feeling that exists between the police and the public and such action tends to make the people resentful of the acts of the police and inclines them to obstruct the police instead of to assist them.

[shaunbhoy]

maybe the UK could implement something like that

We have. Why the fook do you think you and scooter are now in Deutschland?