Reply to: Dodgy interview practices? What would you do?

[Mordac]

A company contacted me via LinkedIn with a job opportunity - and said I needed to visit them for 3 days in Amsterdam, which was an intensive grilling from morning to nighttime by all members of staff. When I got home, they said congratulations we would like to offer you the job. But first we need you to come back for a further 4 days. I said no to this.
I requested the salary package, and they only gave a range, and said the salary level is dependent on how you complete a "little assignment".
On Monday this week, they sent me an email, with a demand - the "little assignment" - to outline a 12 month strategy for their retail client, with powerpoint slides, and marketing, technology, innovation recommendations - and that I had 4 days to complete it, and would need to then present it to them on Friday via Skype. I now realise they were planning to ambush me on that further 4 day visit that they requested. Well, I was travelling from Monday-Thursday (interviewing with other companies)...but I was pretty shocked at what they were expecting from me - considering I am well aware that they need to present a 12 month strategy to that very client in January - and I now feel that they just want me to do all the work for free. If I say no, I won't get the job. If I do it, they may steal all my ideas, and even use my powerpoints to present it all to their client, and I still risk not getting the job - and I risk being used for my strategic ideas.

I need a job, but I think it's an absolute cheek what they are asking me to do. I need to reply diplomatically - how would you respond to this? Would you do it? (work 4-5 days for no pay when you have a 16 year history in your field, and are a well recommended professional in your field?)

Thanks for your constructive thoughts.

Personally, I would tell them to do one. They are trying to get an intern by the back door. I don't mind doing a days consultancy on the very cheap, provided it's all agreed up front, and there is an understanding that any future work is properly valued. Tell them to get stuffed.

[Scruff]

I'm sorry ECC because I know you really want a contract, but do you realise how desperate you are coming across in these posts?

Re-read your posts as if someone else had written them. If you are a strategic consultant who deals with C-execs, you can see that this little outfit is playing you like a violin.

How would YOU advise the OP?

Tell them to go F... themselves 💲💲💲

[cojak]

Yes, they paid expenses for me to go there for the three days. They are a small company, fairly unknown. They made it clear that they are very technically focused and they don't have anyone who could do the strategic client work for their retail clients. One of the employees over lunch one day told me that in January they have to do this big strategic piece for their client.
Then, coincidentally I get the request to create this strategic plan for this client. I wonder if they even know that their employee told me this work is due in January. I did like them but all of this has put me off - including their demand that I go for a further 4 days, I mean how long does it take to decide if you want someone to join your company or not? Normally 2-3 one hour interviews are ample. Not 3 days of intensive interviewing, plus personal assessments over evening dinners and at lunch etc.

That's a pee-take regarding your 4 interview experience - what a waste of your time when they offered you less than you were earning!!! Ridiculous!!

And yeah, I've heard before of consultants being asked to come for an interview, and they try to get your recommendations and advice, when in fact no job exists - they just wanted the free advice.

I'm sorry ECC because I know you really want a contract, but do you realise how desperate you are coming across in these posts?

Re-read your posts as if someone else had written them. If you are a strategic consultant who deals with C-execs, you can see that this little outfit is playing you like a violin.

How would YOU advise the OP?

[ECommerceConsultant]

Indeed is a good one.

I also feel the market is very quiet. I was getting bombarded with decent permie jobs this past spring/summer - jobs that I would have been tempted for had I not been in a contract - and then since August it just went dead. Pretty much completely dead.

Not that I'm looking but it's always nice to know there's stuff out there.

Thanks I will take a look at "Indeed". Yeah the market seems dead to me.

[LondonManc]

Yes, they paid expenses for me to go there for the three days. They are a small company, fairly unknown. They made it clear that they are very technically focused and they don't have anyone who could do the strategic client work for their retail clients. One of the employees over lunch one day told me that in January they have to do this big strategic piece for their client.
Then, coincidentally I get the request to create this strategic plan for this client. I wonder if they even know that their employee told me this work is due in January. I did like them but all of this has put me off - including their demand that I go for a further 4 days, I mean how long does it take to decide if you want someone to join your company or not? Normally 2-3 one hour interviews are ample. Not 3 days of intensive interviewing, plus personal assessments over evening dinners and at lunch etc.

That's a pee-take regarding your 4 interview experience - what a waste of your time when they offered you less than you were earning!!! Ridiculous!!

And yeah, I've heard before of consultants being asked to come for an interview, and they try to get your recommendations and advice, when in fact no job exists - they just wanted the free advice.

It sounds like you've got them over a barrel and they're slowly starting to realise it.

Stand your ground and wait for the money offer. Do not travel, do not pass go, do not collect unwanted grey hairs.

[PurpleGorilla]

Mate why are you even still talking to this bunch of sharks!

[ChimpMaster]

"2000 more jobs" right now in Dec - compared with April you mean? I've been looking at Jobserve and CWJobs... are there any other good ones that you'd recommend? I've been out of the UK for 2.5 years, so any tips would be helpful

Indeed is a good one.

I also feel the market is very quiet. I was getting bombarded with decent permie jobs this past spring/summer - jobs that I would have been tempted for had I not been in a contract - and then since August it just went dead. Pretty much completely dead.

Not that I'm looking but it's always nice to know there's stuff out there.

[GB9]

"2000 more jobs" right now in Dec - compared with April you mean? I've been looking at Jobserve and CWJobs... are there any other good ones that you'd recommend? I've been out of the UK for 2.5 years, so any tips would be helpful

The only reason I know the stat. above is that I had a quick look back then before taking current contract, (hence April rather than any other time). .

I always look at the total of jobs as a comparative for how the market is although many of that number are duplicate / triplicate. The highest I have seen on jobserve is 41k. The lowest is 11k.

No idea about your industry but as long as it isn't SAS then you should be fine, at least in the NY.

[ECommerceConsultant]

On a pure like for like basis there are approx 2,000 more jobs on jobserve than in April. No idea if your market is good or not. Jobserve isn't the only site these days.

p.s. I would tell your prospective clients to sod off, after I had stopped laughing of course.

"2000 more jobs" right now in Dec - compared with April you mean? I've been looking at Jobserve and CWJobs... are there any other good ones that you'd recommend? I've been out of the UK for 2.5 years, so any tips would be helpful

[GB9]

OK, I've written to them, and said that I am fully aware that they need to do the strategic planning for the retail client in January, and I find it quite extraordinary that they've asked me to do this work as part of an interview process. I've also said I'd love to get involved in this strategic planning and drive it forward, but it would need to be a paid assignment at an agreed day rate, plus expenses with a written contract in place.

So, does the UK contract market seem a bit crap at the moment? A few months ago, pre-referendum, I would do a jobserve search and get about 30-80 relevant hits. Now I get 6, and they are not even my skill set.

On a pure like for like basis there are approx 2,000 more jobs on jobserve than in April. No idea if your market is good or not. Jobserve isn't the only site these days.

p.s. I would tell your prospective clients to sod off, after I had stopped laughing of course.

[ECommerceConsultant]

This time of year is always quiet for obvious reasons and should ramp up in the new year. BREXIT has had no direct impact on contract work(imho), although the market was slow in Sept/Oct and picked up a lot during last month. What I would say is don't force the job (I have made that mistake before), make sure you find what is right for you.

Yes, you are right about not forcing it. I absolutely want the right job. It's just annoying that their delays and tactics have taken me from mid-November into almost mid-December, right into a downtime in the market. I was gutted yesterday, I went for a freelance consultant role at a major UK retailer on Tuesday, and I just heard I didn't get it. I was hoping I'd be able to tell the Amsterdam job to take a hike based on a new well paid contract...but it didn't work out that way sadly. Thanks for the update on the market conditions, that is helpful to know.

[ECommerceConsultant]

You have to think about whether you'd want to work for this consultancy on a permanent basis, considering how you already feel about them and how they're treating you.

Their uncouth recruitment process seems to depend to them winning this contract in January. Like many consultancies, they will hire and fire as and when they win/lose/finish client projects.

Yes that is a good point ChimpMaster, they do hire and fire according to winning / losing contracts - I hadn't thought about that. Cheers.

[ECommerceConsultant]

OK, I've written to them, and said that I am fully aware that they need to do the strategic planning for the retail client in January, and I find it quite extraordinary that they've asked me to do this work as part of an interview process. I've also said I'd love to get involved in this strategic planning and drive it forward, but it would need to be a paid assignment at an agreed day rate, plus expenses with a written contract in place.

So, does the UK contract market seem a bit crap at the moment? A few months ago, pre-referendum, I would do a jobserve search and get about 30-80 relevant hits. Now I get 6, and they are not even my skill set.

[ChimpMaster]

You have to think about whether you'd want to work for this consultancy on a permanent basis, considering how you already feel about them and how they're treating you.

Their uncouth recruitment process seems to depend to them winning this contract in January. Like many consultancies, they will hire and fire as and when they win/lose/finish client projects.

[kaiser78]

Yes, you are right. Sorry, they contacted me with a job opportunity, and said they needed someone exactly like me. There is no job description, they would not give any indication about salary or package etc, until I said I can have no further discussions until they give an idea of the package. It's weird though, they tell me they have a policy of 100% visibility in the office - everyone gets to see what everyone else earns - so they said they have to be careful about what they pay me, because others might complain. They also sold it to me that in the Netherlands, there is a 30 percent ruling - which means all ex-pats pay 30% less tax. They said it's a huge benefit to me.
HOWEVER, they then said that because of the ruling, they would have to pay me 30% less than my previous salary, so that I would get the same net income. The only ones benefiting from the 30% is them!!!

I'm trying to find a new contract in the UK - I was contracting for 10+ years, but there seems to be nothing available - is it a slow time of year or has BREXIT wiped out all the contract work? I want to tell them to bugger off, but I'm worried I might not find anything else...

This time of year is always quiet for obvious reasons and should ramp up in the new year. BREXIT has had no direct impact on contract work(imho), although the market was slow in Sept/Oct and picked up a lot during last month. What I would say is don't force the job (I have made that mistake before), make sure you find what is right for you.