Reply to: So why the productivity gap?

[SueEllen]

I agree entirely, the American system of long hours and Indian trait of following instructions and not taking initiative come from their society and upbringing not from their race, it isn't about the person, it's about their environment, there are always outliers but upbringing has a massive influence, for example, I was brought up in the Midlands in an industrial region and really struggle with the concept of working extra unpaid hours. When I was on the shop floor people would stand up and walk out of meetings when the hooters blew, no flexibility at all.

I've noticed that newer immigrants and young people, who don't already have an attitude, work hard in London. Then at some point the young people get p*ssed and stop putting the effort in.

I know in retail this is likely due to poor management who don't thank staff for working properly. I've actually been in shops where customers have asked management to thank staff and the manager just looked confused.

[BigRed]

I agree that most nationalities have their traits but I have never found one that is inherently more productive or hard working than another.

That said i have never worked with the Chinese.

I agree entirely, the American system of long hours and Indian trait of following instructions and not taking initiative come from their society and upbringing not from their race, it isn't about the person, it's about their environment, there are always outliers but upbringing has a massive influence, for example, I was brought up in the Midlands in an industrial region and really struggle with the concept of working extra unpaid hours. When I was on the shop floor people would stand up and walk out of meetings when the hooters blew, no flexibility at all.

[DodgyAgent]

It's because we're all posting crap on internet forums..

Except anyone who is the current "poster of the year"

[SussexSeagull]

I agree that most nationalities have their traits but I have never found one that is inherently more productive or hard working than another.

That said i have never worked with the Chinese.

[BigRed]

While I don't disagree with what people are saying, productivity is normally measured on the shop floor, where it is easier to compare the cost of making widgets. Comparisons of more white collar work would focus on design and usability, a much more subjective assessment.

In my youth it was much the same story and the unions said they were working on antiquated machinery with more breakdowns and less automated production lines. Nissan established new factories with up to date machinery and proved the unions right. I started work as an engineering graduate in the Aerospace industry and about half the machines were pre war, which was looking a little old even in those days.

There has been a tradition in the UK of underinvestment in equipment and training. This applied in manufacturing but was also apparent in football where most managers had no qualifications compared to their European counterparts, which probably explains the plethora of foreign managers in the game today.

I've worked with Americans and found them to have a culture of long hours which naturally leads to chilling out at the watercooler because it isn't sustainable to be at the top of your game for extended hours, Indians that I've worked with tend to want to follow the script and don't like to raise their head above the parapet to offer any innovation (apart from one exceptional guy). Poles truly frightened me with their attention to detail and productivity combined with low wages. If the outsourcing movement had gone there first we would all be out of a job.

The above is all broad brush strokes of course and more about the average, after all, there must be some good merkins

Perhaps if my commute to Nottingham wasn't approaching 2 hours each way on a good day and 3 hrs if there are roadworks or an accident I would be more alert and productive once I actually got into the office. The distance would suggest 1hr 15min but the congestion is ridiculous.

[woohoo]

It's a trend not an absolute. But maybe we are a bit too quick to make excuses, like short-term thinking, lack of investment, poor education and unprofessional management. Not that you're wrong, but all those things are easy to say. Bad managers are often quick to blame lack of resources for why a project is going off the rails (I'm sure we've all heard that) but if they're not getting the most out of the resources they do have then that's not really accurate. And the staff having been told it's not their fault are happy to take it easy too.

I'm against excuses, i think people should take responsibility for their actions. But when I studied management about 15 years ago there was evidence of in the case of Germany of managers being more professional and trained to manage.
As I said often encouraged to study for a second degree in a relevant subject. I don't see that so much here. I've actually seen accountants and sales people promoted to run technical teams, which I think is mad.

Anyway, as I said on a positive note I think we have huge amount going for us here in the UK. Lots of real talent (including management and running companies).

[VectraMan]

I don't really recognize this, at least with the people I know and have worked with. My guess is lots of things like short-term thinking, lack of investment in tech/research, poor education and unprofessional management.

It's a trend not an absolute. But maybe we are a bit too quick to make excuses, like short-term thinking, lack of investment, poor education and unprofessional management. Not that you're wrong, but all those things are easy to say. Bad managers are often quick to blame lack of resources for why a project is going off the rails (I'm sure we've all heard that) but if they're not getting the most out of the resources they do have then that's not really accurate. And the staff having been told it's not their fault are happy to take it easy too.

[vetran]

I don't really recognize this, at least with the people I know and have worked with. My guess is lots of things like short-term thinking, lack of investment in tech/research, poor education and unprofessional management.

I think immigration does impact on jobs to a certain extent. It does also affect communities but I've not heard anyone in work complaining about their right for a job or to be rich.

its the same as the 'lazy benefit scrounger' it allows people to feel superior to be rude about people based on their prejudice. The facts are somewhat more complicated.

[woohoo]

The cynic in me would say it's entitlement. The reaction to immigrants taking "our jobs" is not to work harder or better or try to improve things it's to demand that the borders are closed because people have it in their heads that somehow we're British dammit, and therefore entitled to be rich without having to work for it. And the British are quick to blame any problems on 'management, or politicians, or t'elite, or t'EU.

Or perhaps we're all just lazy. I know I am.

I don't really recognize this, at least with the people I know and have worked with. My guess is lots of things like short-term thinking, lack of investment in tech/research, poor education and unprofessional management.

I think immigration does impact on jobs to a certain extent. It does also affect communities but I've not heard anyone in work complaining about their right for a job or to be rich.

[VectraMan]

The interesting thing about this is that we're behind the Americans too. It seems to me ours tends towards the American work culture of wanting to be seen working lots of hours more than the German culture of working less hours but working harder. You can see why the latter works better, but why do Americans manage to be more productive than us? I've spent the last 5 years working for US companies, and whilst there are hard working highly motivated people there are also just as many who make you wonder how they ever got into a position of responsibility.

The cynic in me would say it's entitlement. The reaction to immigrants taking "our jobs" is not to work harder or better or try to improve things it's to demand that the borders are closed because people have it in their heads that somehow we're British dammit, and therefore entitled to be rich without having to work for it. And the British are quick to blame any problems on 'management, or politicians, or t'elite, or t'EU.

Or perhaps we're all just lazy. I know I am.

[Paddy]

I think most if it is down to long-term investment and thinking. We have a short term approach to most things in this country.

I've been at a few companies and have witnessed new CEO's arriving and the first thing they do is cut-costs by getting rid of people. Makes the balance sheet look a bit better but then everyone else is killing themselves trying to do the same work. Demotivating and often the best people can/tend to walk.

Not sure how true it is anymore but when I studied management at Uni, managers in other countries like Germany tended to be professional managers and trained to do that job. Often they would be expected to study for second degree. Managers in the UK tended to be more amateurish, often accountants asked to manage departments with little experience but they talked in numbers. Big generalization...and I think may have changed a little now.

On the positive we have a huge pool of talent that are educated/creative and damn good at what they do.

At a former client co in NL, it was very laid back but highly efficient and productive. Along came a new German Manager who attempted to organise his system to the clock and remove the fun aspect. Staff left and productivity fell. He was sacked after six months. Productivity rocketed after he left even without a manager for two months.

[woohoo]

I think most if it is down to long-term investment and thinking. We have a short term approach to most things in this country.

I've been at a few companies and have witnessed new CEO's arriving and the first thing they do is cut-costs by getting rid of people. Makes the balance sheet look a bit better but then everyone else is killing themselves trying to do the same work. Demotivating and often the best people can/tend to walk.

Not sure how true it is anymore but when I studied management at Uni, managers in other countries like Germany tended to be professional managers and trained to do that job. Often they would be expected to study for second degree. Managers in the UK tended to be more amateurish, often accountants asked to manage departments with little experience but they talked in numbers. Big generalization...and I think may have changed a little now.

On the positive we have a huge pool of talent that are educated/creative and damn good at what they do.

[_V_]

My experience of working in Germany and Switzerland is that:

1. People don't chat as much during the working day about crap like footie or what they did at the weekend. They just get on with the job. They do take a full hour for lunch and talk then. They leave on time, there's less politics about staying late to impress the boss (i.e. less presenteeism).

2. Fewer open plan offices. Programmers are sometimes 2 per room - much better for productivity.

3. The average ability of the non-graduates is higher than the equivalent Brit. On the skilled graduate level, Brits are, on average, better because more creative and less rigid.

4. There's more specialisation so people eventually get good at what they do, less chopping and changing, less amateurism. That's because in general their companies are more stable.

I work at a German owned company, but based in the UK office.

Spot on, exactly my findings. The Brits in the office chat endlessly about what they watched on TV, what they are buying next on Amazon, what they did on holiday. Pretty much the whole day, chat, chat, chat.

The German colleagues 100% focused on the task. Job done.

[shaunbhoy]

My experience of working in Germany and Switzerland is that:

1. People don't chat as much during the working day about crap like footie or what they did at the weekend. They just get on with the job. They do take a full hour for lunch and talk then. They leave on time, there's less politics about staying late to impress the boss (i.e. less presenteeism).

2. Fewer open plan offices. Programmers are sometimes 2 per room - much better for productivity.

3. The average ability of the non-graduates is higher than the equivalent Brit. On the skilled graduate level, Brits are, on average, better because more creative and less rigid.

4. There's more specialisation so people eventually get good at what they do, less chopping and changing, less amateurism. That's because in general their companies are more stable.

All very fascinating, but it is impossible to overlay your limited experiences as a chalet girl onto any high tech industrial setting and produce meaningful data.

[WTFH]

I tend to find British companies unwilling to invest in training and technology.

Too focussed on short term profit/keeping shareholders happy today, rather than playing the long game