Reply to: Are uber drivers self employed or not?

[SueEllen]

Um ... not sure this is as ground breaking as it sounds. I've only dipped into this at the shallow end, but from what I've read and heard, it looks like Uber were using a Dutch sourced employment contract for the drivers and it wasn't written very well. So just like IR35 if the contract doesn't match the reality and the drivers were being treated as "employees" then clearly they deserve to get burned.

I don't think this is flying in the face of progress, this is just Uber not doing their legal/employment law homework for the UK market. Expect a new driver contract with some corporate changes to make it legal.

https://www.uber.com/a/join-new/gb/ <- So the Uber drivers provide their own equipment and direction and control don't look overly onerous.

Have a read of vwdan's link as it shows why Uber lost.

Btw eBay changed their rating system a good few years ago.

[eek]

Um ... not sure this is as ground breaking as it sounds. I've only dipped into this at the shallow end, but from what I've read and heard, it looks like Uber were using a Dutch sourced employment contract for the drivers and it wasn't written very well. So just like IR35 if the contract doesn't match the reality and the drivers were being treated as "employees" then clearly they deserve to get burned.

I don't think this is flying in the face of progress, this is just Uber not doing their legal/employment law homework for the UK market. Expect a new driver contract with some corporate changes to make it legal.

I believe they are going to be too late for that...

[eek]

This is your argument against workers rights? Thats how to create a race to the bottom where we become little more than Victorian factory workers.

Anyway, the ruling sounds reasonable to me:

https://m.imgur.com/a/q7iPo

Sounds pretty employed to me. Imagine if you sign on to an agency and you have to accept any jobs that come in without knowing what it is, or how much it's worth - would that sound like self employment to you?

Everything else you cite is perfectly doable with any normal taxi company or if Uber properly employed people.

It's interesting to see the examples being used by those foolish enough to argue that the Uber decision is wrong



ebay - that's physical items the only labour is postage and packing so its minimal.
airbnb - I'm renting a room / flat. The only labour is checkin (5 minutes say for a £80 a night rental say) and cleaning afterwards which is billed separately.
uber - I'm paying someone to drive me from a to b (until self-driving cars appear) - its the labour part that is important here not the car itself.

[MrMarkyMark]

Tip? This is Yorkshire. I might have done a runner for all you know.

You have cabs up there, I thought horses went better over the cobbles?

[vwdan]

I understand the desire to protect workers but I don't think anyone is being protected here. If people want different conditions they can find another job, if they can't find another job then it's giving a choice compared to having none.

This is your argument against workers rights? Thats how to create a race to the bottom where we become little more than Victorian factory workers.

Anyway, the ruling sounds reasonable to me:

https://m.imgur.com/a/q7iPo

Sounds pretty employed to me. Imagine if you sign on to an agency and you have to accept any jobs that come in without knowing what it is, or how much it's worth - would that sound like self employment to you?

Everything else you cite is perfectly doable with any normal taxi company or if Uber properly employed people.

[DieScum]

I understand why they've made this ruling but it's a terrible shame. Legislation isn't keeping up with new, better ways of doing things.

Uber has made the entire taxi industry better. It's service is great - easy to use app, no need to mess about with payment and paper receipts, easy to track nearby drivers and when they are coming to you, feedback system for drivers. It's used the latest technology to make an existing industry better and the competition has made traditional cab companies adopt apps and so on.

I understand the desire to protect workers but I don't think anyone is being protected here. If people want different conditions they can find another job, if they can't find another job then it's giving a choice compared to having none. It sounds like most people see it as a flexible add on part time job rather than a full time thing. So you just end up removing options from people willingly doing this.

[barrydidit]

A slice will. Whatever you tip, won't.

Tip? This is Yorkshire. I might have done a runner for all you know.

That's up to Mohammed.

Exactly, it might just have fallen into the wrong pocket.

+1 I've asked a couple of mini cab drivers about Uber a while back, they cited the main reason they won't work for Uber is the paper trail the payment mechanism (all receipted and available for HMRC to investigate) leaves

Of course, what we do know is that my tenner won't have been laundered to the Cayman islands. It'll have been spent somewhere or other, however long it takes to make its way out of the black economy.

[SlipTheJab]

True, but that assumes that a slice of the tenner I give to Mohammed on the way home tonight finds its way to Hector.

+1 I've asked a couple of mini cab drivers about Uber a while back, they cited the main reason they won't work for Uber is the paper trail the payment mechanism (all receipted and available for HMRC to investigate) leaves

[SueEllen]

A slice will. Whatever you tip, won't.

That's up to Mohammed.

[LondonManc]

True, but that assumes that a slice of the tenner I give to Mohammed on the way home tonight finds its way to Hector.

A slice will. Whatever you tip, won't.

[barrydidit]

Agreed but who exactly is benefiting from this:

Forbes Welcome

We are in a state of action where Uber is using low pay + cheap venture capital to decimate a tax paying component of our economy.

You can discuss finance and tax of profits as much as you want but you have to see that screwing tax payers to the dole queue so that when they are gone you can revert to popping all your profit into an offshore haven is not helping anyone.

True, but that assumes that a slice of the tenner I give to Mohammed on the way home tonight finds its way to Hector.

[bobspud]

Doesn't that go without saying? Company pays tax on the profit, after all

Agreed but who exactly is benefiting from this:

Forbes Welcome

We are in a state of action where Uber is using low pay + cheap venture capital to decimate a tax paying component of our economy.

You can discuss finance and tax of profits as much as you want but you have to see that screwing tax payers to the dole queue so that when they are gone you can revert to popping all your profit into an offshore haven is not helping anyone.

[missinggreenfields]

I don't believe that Uber is making a profit or paying any taxes on any either at this stage.

Doesn't that go without saying? Company pays tax on the profit, after all

[SlipTheJab]

I use Uber in place of mini cabs and black cabs all the time now to and from Birmingham International train station, so convenient and the app works really well. The same journey via Uber is half the price of a black cab. What made me try it out was the last couple of times I got a black cab the driver had no idea of where my address was (and its not exactly in the middle of nowhere) so I had to direct him all the way to my house (so much for their vaulted training) and pay him 15 quid for the trouble. The Uber drivers I spoke to are very happy with the model, they work when they want to, its convenient and secure, whats not to like (unless you drive a black/mini cab)?

[Old Greg]

Then when they have finished using low paid slaves to do their dirty work, the Fully Automated S-Class fleet should be ready and then the uber drivers will be sat in the gutter next to the black cab drivers that they helped destroy. This is called progress? I think we need to have a re-think...

Right, everybody out! Smash the Spinning Jenny! Burn the Rolling Rosalind! Destroy the Going-up-and-down-a-bit-and-then-moving-along Gertrude! And death to the stupid Prince who grows fat on the profits!