Reply to: Smartphone good in low light?

[WTFH]

How can a full-frame 2.25 Megapixel camera be far more sensitive and expensive than, say, a full-frame 50 Megapixel Canon EOS 5DS, which is on sale for literally a tenth of the price?!

I mean these days 2.25 Megapixels is completely derisory.

Because you need MASSIVE pixels to pick up light when it's very low.


No other sensor manufacturer can make pixels that big.


But to give you a simpler explanation...
Side by Side Comparison: Digital Photography Review
5DS v 5DIII


One is 51Mp, the other 22.
51Mp maxes out at 6400
22Mp maxes at 25600, or 4 stops extra. Bigger pixels mean each pixel can receive more light.

[OwlHoot]

True for cropping, false for blowing up.


12Mp full frame will do billboard size.


As for pixels (cells) and low light, the most sensitive camera available (to order) is the Canon ME20F-SH. It's 2.25Mp, full frame, which gives a pixel size of around 19microns. The sensitivity is up to ISO 4,096,000.
Basically it can record an image where one photon of light falls on each pixel.
All for only £20,000 approx.


I'm happy with 22Mp, 6.25micron pixels and ISO 25,600, but not on a phone.

How can a full-frame 2.25 Megapixel camera be far more sensitive and expensive than, say, a full-frame 50 Megapixel Canon EOS 5DS, which is on sale for literally a tenth of the price?!

I mean these days 2.25 Megapixels is completely derisory.

[WTFH]

5D2?

I have one of those gathering dust. Supposed to be putting it on ebay soon


5D3 & 7D2 currently. (previously a 5D, then a 5D2 & 7D)


Bodies are cheap. Lenses are where you spend the money.

[d000hg]

I've got a feeling you CAN hack Android onto Lumia hardware if you're of that bent. A 2s Google search suggests it's achievable but I personally couldn't be bothered.

[rl4engc]

I'm happy with 22Mp, 6.25micron pixels and ISO 25,600, but not on a phone.

5D2?

[WTFH]

The only time you need more megapixels is if you're cropping a photo or blowing it up to poster of billboard size.

True for cropping, false for blowing up.


12Mp full frame will do billboard size.


As for pixels (cells) and low light, the most sensitive camera available (to order) is the Canon ME20F-SH. It's 2.25Mp, full frame, which gives a pixel size of around 19microns. The sensitivity is up to ISO 4,096,000.
Basically it can record an image where one photon of light falls on each pixel.
All for only £20,000 approx.


I'm happy with 22Mp, 6.25micron pixels and ISO 25,600, but not on a phone.

[rl4engc]

My understanding is basically, only a certain amount of light reaches the sensor. This light is then divided amongst all the 'cells' or whatever they're called, a larger cell will pick up more available light thus there's less signal/noise error in amplifying tiny voltages that come from tiny amounts of light.

The only time you need more megapixels is if you're cropping a photo or blowing it up to poster of billboard size.

[WTFH]

d000hg,
I'm saying it's not as good not based on examining evidence but based on pixel size. 4 pixels on the 40Mp sensor have an overall pixel area smaller than 1 on a 10, because pixels have borders and 4 borders are wider than 1.

[rl4engc]

I own the Dual SIM 4G model called Honor. £150 and I can't believe it lasted me a year now. High spec and low price

Where did you get it? Some people mention vmall but they seem to have supply issues. Looks good (Honor 7) but non-removable battery is a bummer. What are they like for firmware updates?

The Lumia range is the stand out for cameras, though you want to avoid new Windows 10 models as they have Windows 10!

My 1020 is pretty great. I basically never use the flash and photos come out great.

I've heard 1020 is great, not sure I'm ready to jump from Android to Windows though, Android has a lot more full apps you can, ahem, sideload. No development on an Android Lumia with this sensor?

You'd be better off getting a separate compact digital camera, like a Sony or Canon, with a larger lens.

Yer it's just another thing to take out though. I'm just on about when you're out n about, and say rl4.Jr. is messing in the park just to be able to get a decent shot, currently I grab phone, unlock, start camera app, take a blurred photo, look at screen with fake expression as though it's turned out well, delete, and put back in pocket.

Why not Apple? [...] Panasonic Lumix CM1 - 20Mp, 1" This is the smartphone with the biggest sensor and the biggest pixels (so it's best in low light), it's also made by a camera manufacturer.

Apple - Good hardware, but I refuse to pay £45 a month contract and have a walled garden. If I could get an iPhone 5/6 for ~£400 and put iDroid on it or something I'd consider it. Lumix CM1, will look into that cheers.

Good ideas so far folks so cheers!

[d000hg]

So, take a 40Mp sensor and to "improve the image quality", combine 4 pixels into one. You end up with a 10Mp image which isn't as good as a 10Mp image taken with a 10Mp sensor of the same size, but is better than a 40Mp image taken with a 40Mp sensor of that size.

I'm not sure that's true. I thought the whole point was it's designed to downsample - you can't even get the raw 40Mp image without mucking about - so you do get a better image than just using a 10Mp chip to start with.
The Nokia engineers knew their stuff and weren't chasing numbers, the 808 was a challenge to fit a full camera in a phone casing basically!

The Panasonic one you mention sounds like it's along the same lines, but goes even further. Is it bulkier?

[d000hg]

Well a phone camera is never going to be as good as a proper camera in ANY situation. But low-light is one area the difference between the best phones and mid-range ones is... well night and day. Quite decent photos. Obviously a steady hand helps too.

I'd post an example but the forum doesn't support uploads.

[WTFH]

Isn't this where the oversampling comes in on modern chips (like the PureView used in Lumias)? Or is that for something else?

Allegedly it's for that, but all it does is allow a manufacturer to claim lots of megapixels. Most people are hung up on megapixels (more must be better).


So, take a 40Mp sensor and to "improve the image quality", combine 4 pixels into one. You end up with a 10Mp image which isn't as good as a 10Mp image taken with a 10Mp sensor of the same size, but is better than a 40Mp image taken with a 40Mp sensor of that size.


The Lumia 1020's sensor is about 1/4 the size of a crop dSLR or about 1/15th the size of full frame. The Panasonic's sensor is 2x the size of the Lumia.

[OwlHoot]

Isn't this where the oversampling comes in on modern chips (like the PureView used in Lumias)? Or is that for something else?

Hmm, not sure. I don't claim to be an expert, but it seems fairly obvious (even if possibly wrong) that a lens the size of a pea will never take as good pictures in low light as a much larger lens.

[d000hg]

Arguably, you'll never find a smartphone that takes good quality pics in low light, simply because it doesn't have the aperture.

Isn't this where the oversampling comes in on modern chips (like the PureView used in Lumias)? Or is that for something else?

[WTFH]

Why not Apple?


Anyway, ignoring prejudice...


Panasonic Lumix CM1 - 20Mp, 1"


This is the smartphone with the biggest sensor and the biggest pixels (so it's best in low light), it's also made by a camera manufacturer.