RFC - Contract Roles that involve managing perm staff

[MPwannadecentincome]

They are, but good luck to them being outside IR35 when HMR&C stomp all over their tax affairs...

hmm I must look into this with people I know who are "interim" CIOs and IT Directors which carries line management responsibility for the whole IT department.

[kaiser78]

If you are talking about managing workload and focus then it could be OK. A PM will manage a set of tasks and allocate to perm staff in a matrix type application but not day to day 'line' management then this could be acceptable... and will probably be required for many more senior roles or organisation type roles e.g. PM.

This is what I do in my current role.

[LondonManc]

If you're brought in to deliver a project, you'll need to manage resources. It shouldn't impact IR35 whether the resources are perm, contract, consultancy or supplier.

BAU Line management puts you at risk of direction and control due to line management duties and methods, by leaving you open to be "line-managed".

[DodgyAgent]

I sniff a complete lack of reality here.

Putting a genuine contractor in a line management position is good for absolutely nobody and of course the contractual arrangements matter - permies are meant to embed in and thrive within an organisation, contractors are not.

Oh dear. Here we have an idiot stuck in the dark ages of Jobsworths hierarchies and management structures, or we have a contractor that does not like to take any form of responsibility.

Workers are there to get things done provided the leadership is there it does not matter what the contractual arrangement is between worker and employer

[rl4engc]

I can't see a problem if you're being brought in as a Consultant, and part of that Consultant role is to manage the technical/PM side of what the permies doing the leg work are doing.

On a personal level I'd only do it if you know you are good at it, as any Permies won't take kindly to having to answer to someone who clearly is less competent and on 3x more money than they are, will lead to all sorts of back stabbing and office politics and that tulipe is way best avoided.

[Jog On]

Managing as in a BAU manager or having permies under your direction in a project team?

In a project team they can be invaluable when it comes to having contacts and tacit knowledge of the business.

[TykeMerc]

All,

Purely theoretical but what is everybody's thoughts on contract roles that involve managing permanent staff.

My gut is saying "bad idea"...discuss.

Thanks
GE

For any of us working in Management roles it's unavoidable, in fact it's a critical part of the role. The critical tests (as they stand now, Substitution, Mutuality and Direction or Control) are all easy enough to pass in practice as a manager, arguably easier than as a developer, designer, architect or support body who are all "controlled or directed" after a fashion. It's a matter of semantics a lot of the time of course.

[vwdan]

I do not see why it matters what contractual arrangement exists between parties working for a company. i sniff a lack of leadership skills here. Managers should be leaders an d if they are any good it would not matter who earns what or how everyone is paid.

I sniff a complete lack of reality here.

Putting a genuine contractor in a line management position is good for absolutely nobody and of course the contractual arrangements matter - permies are meant to embed in and thrive within an organisation, contractors are not.

[DodgyAgent]

I do not see why it matters what contractual arrangement exists between parties working for a company. i sniff a lack of leadership skills here. Managers should be leaders an d if they are any good it would not matter who earns what or how everyone is paid.

[northernladuk]

They are, but good luck to them being outside IR35 when HMR&C stomp all over their tax affairs...

It does get very sticky when you get to that level but saying that (and in contradiction to my previous post ) they did abandon the controlling persons act. There are still some pretty clear rules about director level posts at clients.

Finance Bill update: IR35 & controlling persons | Gabelle LLP Tax Consultants

I still don't think being at Exec level is an instant fail though.

[_V_]

Aren't some exec's contractors; both in private firms, and public sector?

They are, but good luck to them being outside IR35 when HMR&C stomp all over their tax affairs...

[northernladuk]

The question is too generic to provide any kind of reasonable answer. You need to give clearer examples and define what you mean about 'managing' staff.

Are you talking about full management i.e. Learning and Development, reviews, expenses sign off etc? If so then this could be a problem and should never really happen either. Would be very bad form of a client to put anyone in this position. It's not good for the client, the staff or the contractor. Any member of staff should always have a permie line manager even if it's not the next person up the ladder.

If you are talking about managing workload and focus then it could be OK. A PM will manage a set of tasks and allocate to perm staff in a matrix type application but not day to day 'line' management then this could be acceptable... and will probably be required for many more senior roles or organisation type roles e.g. PM.

By saying a flat no to managing people you are effectively isolating any contractor that is in a more senior role and that just won't work. Clients can and do use contractors at all levels, right up to 'Controlling person' level.

It's horses for courses but 'line management' of staff should be avoided for a host of reasons, not just IR35 IMO.

[PurpleGorilla]

Aren't some exec's contractors; both in private firms, and public sector?

[_V_]

A contractor managing perm staff just "feels" wrong to me. And makes a mockery of any claim to be outside IR35, you being part and parcel of the client org chart as a line manager.

[garethevans1986]

All,

Purely theoretical but what is everybody's thoughts on contract roles that involve managing permanent staff.

My gut is saying "bad idea"...discuss.

Thanks
GE