Reply to: Why is anyone who is accused named publicly?

[unixman]

@Nibblypig The arguement that loads of people make false rape and sexual assault accusations isn't true.

You can't possibly know that. Nor can anybody, which is what makes the situation a difficult one. Legal process is required in order to make a determination in each case. However in the current situation, the accused is smeared before any legal process had even begun. Often this alone leads to loss of career and ruination of life. With no remedy (ie the law can't correct or undo it, or compensate for it, even after the innocent are found innocent). The law is not supposed to work like that.

Things aren't likely to change until the current head of the CPS, who is much critisized and (in my view) very politically correct, leaves the post.

[vetran]

It should be treated like a search warrant, the police should apply to a judge for permission to release the name. The person's lawyer should be able to challenge it at that point.

That gives it a reasonable and challenge-able process.

If a prosecution fails then there should be an independent process to examine why. I'm quite happy for third party experts to consult. The one case I saw was so badly investigated & presented it was doubtful anyone with a brain would have brought it to court in that form. It may well have had merit but appeared from outside a 3 year old had investigated it.

People falsely accusing should be prosecuted hard! If you can prosecute someone for voluntarily having sex while they are both very drunk then you damn well prosecute someone for sitting in a police interview cell and lying through their teeth. Obviously you have to be sure but repeat offenders are a good clue.

[SueEllen]

Problem with the stats is that most rapes aren't reported the same as most crimes, and the police don't record sexual assaults that could be considered rape as such like they put other serious crimes into other categories. Also men, children and sex workers are the groups who don't report incidents. So I've read the 5% stats and then someone pointed this out to me.

In regards to guys getting life sentences for rape that's not likely. Plus people are put on remand for other crimes and imprisoned where the charges are dropped.

The main issue is how the police decide whose names to give out to the media, there should be clarity on why they do so. (I've mentioned this before) This should be stated in every case.

For example giving Cliff Richard's name out didn't achieve anything. Every white male involved in entertainment in the 70's is under suspicion and the police look incompetent if they haven't got anything to charge them with.

Changing until they are charged won't help either as they will charge more people*, then CPS will just make them drop the charges.

In regards to the US the situation is different in their colleges. They deal with most crimes themselves rather than refer them to the police. There as UK universities will and do call the police in. This means US accusers will try and get media attention while in the UK the accusers will think they have been treated fairly so won't. Though there are incidents in the UK were the students get angry as they have to see their alleged abuser all the time. However the university can't win for obvious reasons.

The school situation can be similar. UK schools especially public schools have been caught sweeping incidents under the carpet.

I'm surprised you didn't know that there are too many suicides in the 17 year old age group when taken in for questioning by the police for any crime. This is because the police don't treat them like children. There have been a family who campaigned about this as their son was questioned without a responsible adult and then killed himself.

*While women can't rape they can be charged by association.

[NibblyPig]

@Nibblypig The arguement that loads of people make false rape and sexual assault accusations isn't true.

The CPS and police forces have been asked to provide figures over the years so you can Google for them.

Secondly while the accuser's name isn't allowed in the media it doesn't mean people won't tell each other verbally. In this type of situation the accuser will be victim blamed and shamed so wouldn't save face with her friends'. In fact as most people in social circles know each other directly or indirectly she would find she's ostracised. After all would you want to hang out with someone who could accuse your brother of being a rapist? Would you want to employ someone where you have a mixed workforce who you can't trust to leave alone with the opposite sex?

You say that there are a large volume of false rape claims isn't true, but I think you should probably check your own facts on that one... incidentally another guy suicided today due to a false rape claim. Stats have it pinned between 5 and 20% but it is very difficult to measure.

Not to mention the two highest profile cases in recent media, the mattress girl and the rolling stone article that both had huge repercussions.

I mean most of them probably won't even appear in the mainstream media, especially when the person recants the next day or they occur in remote locations without much drama, but here's some others: Op-Ed: A timeline of recent false rape cases

And saying because friends and family will know it's fine to plaster it all over the media is a pretty terrifying view. What about that bloke in Bristol, the media plastered his name as the suspected killer of that girl (Joanna Yeats), and people attacked him and he literally lived in fear, despite being acquitted when they caught the real dude, thanks to the media. That wouldn't have happened if it had been isolated to only the people affected, it would barely spread at all outside of the people that directly knew him, and it'd be just hearsay.

The scary thing is that if you get away with it you can imprison someone for 20 or 30 years, right from the second you call the police and they automatically arrest the guy and throw him in prison. With those kind of consequences you'd think that it'd merit *some* punishment for lying.

There's literally cases where people have lied 5, 10, 15 times with different guys, never suffered any punishment, each time the guys have been put through hell. Not really acceptable.

[BrilloPad]

@Nibblypig The arguement that loads of people make false rape and sexual assault accusations isn't true.

Absolutely. And there are way too few prosecutions for rape.

However the cause for changing this will be undermined by a small minority of women making false accusations. And very much undermined if the man concerned commits suicide due to the publicity - while she remains anonymous.

Not that this thread is really about rape. I would be most unhappy to be accused of fraud - then found innocent and be tarnished a fraudster. Mud sticks.

[AtW]

There should be some kind of compensation paid to anybody who was accused of serious stuff and later it falls apart - bigger for more serious accusations. That would balance things out nicely.

[AtW]

The police can charge you, then the CPS will go through the case and drop the charges or change them.

I thought they can only charge if CPS says it's at leats 50-50 in court?

[AtW]

British rape laws need urgent reform to prevent injustice - Telegraph

I am not sure why anyone should be named until they are found guilty?

They are named to get a chance of more people to come forward in case it was a serial offender, that would make it more likely they get convicted...

[SueEllen]

Many people think that the accused should remain anonymous at least until charged. There is an argument both ways. Publicizing the accusation (as now) allows other complainants to "come forward". On the other hand, Keeping it anonymous until charged would protect the wrongly accused.

I'm in camp#2 and think the accused should remain anonymous until charged. That would still allow others to come forward after charging, while providing some protection for the innocently accused.

The police can charge you, then the CPS will go through the case and drop the charges or change them.

So all that would happen is the police would charge more people to get the stories in the media, then the CPS will drop them due to "lack of evidence".

Personally I want to know the criteria the police use to obtain publicity for some cases but not others.

[SueEllen]

@Nibblypig The arguement that loads of people make false rape and sexual assault accusations isn't true.

The CPS and police forces have been asked to provide figures over the years so you can Google for them.

Secondly while the accuser's name isn't allowed in the media it doesn't mean people won't tell each other verbally. In this type of situation the accuser will be victim blamed and shamed so wouldn't save face with her friends'. In fact as most people in social circles know each other directly or indirectly she would find she's ostracised. After all would you want to hang out with someone who could accuse your brother of being a rapist? Would you want to employ someone where you have a mixed workforce who you can't trust to leave alone with the opposite sex?

[unixman]

Many people think that the accused should remain anonymous at least until charged. There is an argument both ways. Publicizing the accusation (as now) allows other complainants to "come forward". On the other hand, Keeping it anonymous until charged would protect the wrongly accused.

I'm in camp#2 and think the accused should remain anonymous until charged. That would still allow others to come forward after charging, while providing some protection for the innocently accused.

[NibblyPig]

False accusations are treated as a serious offence but the CPS decide the majority of cases are not worth taking to court. Remember they waste a lot of police time and resources.

Aye, but so do all the other false accusations that people do because there are no negative consequences. There are literally people who regret sleeping with someone and decide to call it rape to deceive their own conscience and save face with their friends. They'd think twice if they saw someone do 6 months in prison for trying to pull that stunt. Especially since if they get away with it they've destroyed someone's entire life on a whim, a 20 year sentence or similar plus eternal stigma and unimaginable personal torment.

Plus with the likes of the child abuse, taxi driver etc cases the victims were telling the truth but it was the police and others deciding they were lying.

You'd only be punished if you were lying beyond reasonable doubt, usually the false accusation cases are blatant with overwhelming evidence, usually because the person admits it after they're called out with contradicting testimony or bulletproof video evidence. So even if people said you were lying they'd not only have to accuse you of lying but also prove it, which would be impossible if you hadn't done anything.

The most recent famous case had the woman commit suicide before the case went to trial. So the guy who was accused of rape and then chased a private prosecution against her now looks even worse.

The most recent case I've seen is this teenager killing himself after being falsely accused of rape, published 6 days ago. The accuser recanted, is not named, and will suffer no consequences for the act.

[northernladuk]

Thing is the press don't help any of this. Remember the story of the security guard ripping the suckling babe from the woman in Primark and two days later agencies about it all. Not a nice place for the gaurd to be in.

[SueEllen]

False accusations are treated as a serious offence but the CPS decide the majority of cases are not worth taking to court. Remember they waste a lot of police time and resources.

Plus with the likes of the child abuse, taxi driver etc cases the victims were telling the truth but it was the police and others deciding they were lying.

It's not unknown for the accused who has had the charges dropped to take out a private prosecution. Most people are advised strongly against.

The most recent famous case had the woman commit suicide before the case went to trial. So the guy who was accused of rape and then chased a private prosecution against her now looks even worse.

[NibblyPig]

They need to make false accusations a serious imprisonable offense as well.

It only takes a few accusations to get a person kicked out of school/university and shamed for life, even if it later comes out to be a lie. Some people have even been killed by mob justice for this.

In almost all cases, people that intentionally lie get away without any charges. Even if it's a complete total lie with video evidence, the victim can expect a stay in prison overnight or worse anyway.

Some people say it's to prevent people from being afraid to come forward, but there's a difference between not having enough evidence to prosecute or being unable to properly remember or explain what happened and blatantly lying. Not prosecuting for false accusations actually harms other victims because people will be less likely to take them seriously.