Reply to: Toplessness - what is wrong with it?

[SueEllen]

Right. Then say "Christianity and Islam" then instead of "Religion". Still doesn't explain Austrian saunas. "Cover up" prudery seems more a protestant thing - so perhaps "Protestantism and Islam" would be more accurate. Saying "Get rid of religion and you'll resolve sexual prudity" is a bit of a daft generalisation - perhaps driven by an irrational, knee-jerk hatred for religion.

The most prudish people I've ever house shared with have been Irish Catholics.

On the other hand those Swedes are Protestant - Lutherans.

So it's culture that the religion operates in rather than the religion in isolation.

[darmstadt]

This might be interesting to some of the contributors here: The Institute of Sexology | Wellcome Collection

Possibly NSFW:

I went to this one the other day, quite interesting actually, definitely not tittilating: 100 Jahre BH - Ausstellung im Museum für Kommunikation - Frankfurter Rundschau (100 years of the bra)

[mudskipper]

It's a fantasy, of course it *might* be fun in a fantasy. Don't get confused about (some) women fantasising about what rape might be like with a bloke they fancy the *rse off, vs wanting to be raped, which I highly doubt they do.

Yep - the thing about fantasies is that you're in control of them.

[Platypus]

the idea that they think rape might be fun.

It's a fantasy, of course it *might* be fun in a fantasy. Don't get confused about (some) women fantasising about what rape might be like with a bloke they fancy the *rse off, vs wanting to be raped, which I highly doubt they do.

[BrilloPad]

Was watching a TV prog called "It was OK in the 70s" and it's amazing what was considered ok then.

I don't mean just nudity, with pre-watershed tits, no problem with that, but there were quite clear implications of rape being ok, of women wanting it, even in adverts.

I was a member of the guardian talk boards in early noughties. There was a thread on female fantasies - there were alot of women who posted they wanted to be raped. There were regular meet-ups and some of these women did attend.

I found it very disturbing that they should post that stuff online. To have it as a desire and tell your partner - fine. But to give some men the idea that they think rape is fun.

[original PM]

pretty much any form of nudity/showing skin (even ankles) was considered wrong in the Victorian days...

[mudskipper]

Was watching a TV prog called "It was OK in the 70s" and it's amazing what was considered ok then.

I don't mean just nudity, with pre-watershed tits, no problem with that, but there were quite clear implications of rape being ok, of women wanting it, even in adverts.

I'm sure I read that in Victorian times, male toplessness was as unacceptable as female.

[NotAllThere]

If their religion does not have that particular taboo it will have other beliefs that are equally irrational. They may consult shamans, rely on good luck charms or have rituals to drive out evil spirits instead of following proper health procedures, for example. In Christian and Muslim countries, religion is the reason for our daft sexual inhibitions. ...

Right. Then say "Christianity and Islam" then instead of "Religion". Still doesn't explain Austrian saunas. "Cover up" prudery seems more a protestant thing - so perhaps "Protestantism and Islam" would be more accurate. Saying "Get rid of religion and you'll resolve sexual prudity" is a bit of a daft generalisation - perhaps driven by an irrational, knee-jerk hatred for religion.

I was reading the other day that the Victorians had the idea that conception was far more likely if the woman orgasmed. Also, pre-Victoria, bare breasts weren't a problem - ankles though....

Christianity and Islam both teach modesty in dress. In Christianity at least, what is modest is not spelled out at all. There's no biblical injunction against toplessness. It is society that deems what is acceptable. Now that might be influenced heavily by religious leaders (surely not now though), but it isn't, per-se part of Christianitiy.

[xoggoth]

Was watching a TV prog called "It was OK in the 70s" and it's amazing what was considered ok then.

I don't mean just nudity, with pre-watershed tits, no problem with that, but there were quite clear implications of rape being ok, of women wanting it, even in adverts.

[xoggoth]

I'm fairly sure that the African and other tribal people who go topless at least a ridden with religion and superstition as any western country

If their religion does not have that particular taboo it will have other beliefs that are equally irrational. They may consult shamans, rely on good luck charms or have rituals to drive out evil spirits instead of following proper health procedures, for example. In Christian and Muslim countries, religion is the reason for our daft sexual inhibitions. At the other extreme, Satanists may use sex as part of their rituals and catch all sorts of STDs, like Alistair Crowley did.

My point was that, without religion, we could decide our rules about sexuality or any other issues on a more factual basis.

[EternalOptimist]

This thread is useless without pictures.


btw, I'm fairly sure that the African and other tribal people who go topless at least a ridden with religion and superstition as any western country, so Xoggoth's rant seems to be based on delusional thinking. This is also demonstrated by, e.g. Austria. A conservative Catholic country, yet nudity in saunas is socially acceptable.

The Spartans were into nudity. its true. the other Greeks even began to copy that

[NotAllThere]

This thread is useless without pictures.


btw, I'm fairly sure that the African and other tribal people who go topless at least a ridden with religion and superstition as any western country, so Xoggoth's rant seems to be based on delusional thinking. This is also demonstrated by, e.g. Austria. A conservative Catholic country, yet nudity in saunas is socially acceptable.

[Sysman]

Still today. It's only where we've imposed our Western values that they cover up.

If you follow the money the porn industry is the main beneficiary.

[mudskipper]

mmm.
maybe in 'Zulu'

but not nowadays I dont think

last time I saw a beach full of topless babes was in Greece. Very nice for the first ten minutes, then you start to wonder what all the fuss was about. blokes eh! ?

Still today. It's only where we've imposed our Western values that they cover up.

[EternalOptimist]

African tribes seem to cope with it OK. I guess they're a bit more advanced than us.

mmm.
maybe in 'Zulu'

but not nowadays I dont think

last time I saw a beach full of topless babes was in Greece. Very nice for the first ten minutes, then you start to wonder what all the fuss was about. blokes eh! ?