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Previously on "Council & Agency have colluded not to Furlough me"

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  • oilboil
    replied
    Originally posted by NotAllThere View Post
    Please stop posting such rubbish.

    The client pays the fee to the agency. The agency deducts their percentage, leaving the notional fee. They then make all the PAYE deductions, including erNIC, and hand over to the worker what's left. The fact that the erNIC comes out of a the notional fee is utterly irrelevant. Legally, the worker is an employee of the agency. Just as it would be if the worker had gone through an umbrella company.
    And in your description of the process you are correct, the poster said they "paid" the employer NI, that makes them an employer not the employee (hint - it's right there in the name of the deduction)

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  • NotAllThere
    replied
    Originally posted by oilboil View Post
    No - if you are paying employers NI you aren't an employee, you are a contingent resource using their payroll processing service. If you were an actual employee they would pay the employers NI as they are your employer. I can't see a staffer at Accenture being asked to pay the employers NI due on their salary, can you?
    Please stop posting such rubbish.

    The client pays the fee to the agency. The agency deducts their percentage, leaving the notional fee. They then make all the PAYE deductions, including erNIC, and hand over to the worker what's left. The fact that the erNIC comes out of a the notional fee is utterly irrelevant. Legally, the worker is an employee of the agency. Just as it would be if the worker had gone through an umbrella company.

    Leave a comment:


  • oilboil
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr S T View Post
    I pay employees and employers National Insurance contributions. So I would think I am an employee of the agency??
    No - if you are paying employers NI you aren't an employee, you are a contingent resource using their payroll processing service. If you were an actual employee they would pay the employers NI as they are your employer. I can't see a staffer at Accenture being asked to pay the employers NI due on their salary, can you?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr S T
    replied
    Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
    The can only furlough employees and you aren't an employee surely...

    I pay employees and employers National Insurance contributions. So I would think I am an employee of the agency??

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  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by psychocandy View Post
    hmm yes I suppose. But OK client says take 3 months off (and you've got 5 month left). What would you do?

    I'd be straight off getting another gig. Then if I got one handing in notice if I could on the first one. If there was no notice period then its more complicated of course.

    Apply MOO and say no thanks in 3 months?

    I dont think any of us would sit at home and suck up the 3 months....
    Oh I'm totally with you on that. Just pointing out technically then can. Most clients do it over xmas so it's the same thing, just 3 months. Fat chance anyone would stick around for that I agree.

    Was just being pedantic about the wording..

    they can tell contractors they're not needed for 3 months then they are still obliged to come back if requested
    This bit is correct, they can. While in contract they withdraw for a period and the contractor will be obliged to come back and fulfil their obligations as part of the agree piece of work. Like xmas but for 3 months. There are obligations around the contracted piece of work. MoO is about things outside of that.

    The reality is, as you stay, no one in their right mind would stick around. They'd get another gig, give notice and leave.

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  • psychocandy
    replied
    Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
    Technically the can if the contract is long enough.....
    hmm yes I suppose. But OK client says take 3 months off (and you've got 5 month left). What would you do?

    I'd be straight off getting another gig. Then if I got one handing in notice if I could on the first one. If there was no notice period then its more complicated of course.

    Apply MOO and say no thanks in 3 months?

    I dont think any of us would sit at home and suck up the 3 months....

    Leave a comment:


  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by oilboil View Post
    They aren't allowed to charge for these things if you are on furlough - it's in black and white in the rules.
    He'll get the message.... Eventually.

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  • oilboil
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr S T View Post
    I would have gladly paid their overheads if they asked me, and Im sure 100% of other contractors would do the same as getting some furlough help is better then nothing.
    They aren't allowed to charge for these things if you are on furlough - it's in black and white in the rules.

    Leave a comment:


  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr S T View Post
    I would have gladly paid their overheads if they asked me, and Im sure 100% of other contractors would do the same as getting some furlough help is better then nothing.
    The can only furlough employees and you aren't an employee surely...

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr S T
    replied
    Originally posted by oilboil View Post
    They could have, but it costs them to process payroll and they have other costs like apprentice levy that the furlough doesn't pay. So they'd be paying out of their pockets to allow them to furlough him. It wouldn't be much but if they have lots of people on this type of payment process it would quickly mount up
    I would have gladly paid their overheads if they asked me, and Im sure 100% of other contractors would do the same as getting some furlough help is better then nothing.

    Leave a comment:


  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by psychocandy View Post
    Saying that, its not just contractors who dont get this. Naming no names, I know of a client who thinks they can tell contractors they're not needed for 3 months then they are still obliged to come back if requested. Not me BTW.
    Technically the can if the contract is long enough.....

    Leave a comment:


  • psychocandy
    replied
    Originally posted by oilboil View Post
    You are missing the point, its a contract and they've terminated - they are legally allowed to so.

    You are missing the point, the furlough scheme is for employees the employer wishes to retain but has no means to pay (in its simplest form), they don't want to retain you (they might be happy to rehire you later but that's a different beast)

    You are missing the point, the furlough scheme is optional and an employer has no obligation to put any employee on it (and they can choose to put some but not other on it)

    If you want to throw good money after bad, by all means talk to a solicitor, but after trousering your notes they'll just tell you exactly what we've told you.
    Some wise words here.......

    Its a contract they can terminate it if they want. They obviously wanted to. You are free to do whatever now. You have no obligation to go back ever. Obviously, they are confident they can call in a few months and pick you back up.

    Saying that, its not just contractors who dont get this. Naming no names, I know of a client who thinks they can tell contractors they're not needed for 3 months then they are still obliged to come back if requested. Not me BTW.

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  • oilboil
    replied
    Originally posted by NotAllThere View Post
    The agency was his employer. They could have put him on furlough - regardless of the client action.
    They could have, but it costs them to process payroll and they have other costs like apprentice levy that the furlough doesn't pay. So they'd be paying out of their pockets to allow them to furlough him. It wouldn't be much but if they have lots of people on this type of payment process it would quickly mount up

    Leave a comment:


  • NotAllThere
    replied
    Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
    But they aren't your employer. They are your client.

    Not sure what's immoral about them not helping you when they can't.
    The agency was his employer. They could have put him on furlough - regardless of the client action.

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  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr S T View Post
    Thanks for the lesson, I realise now we are expendable assets. Live by the sword die by the sword. But if I was a Ltd company I could have put myself on furlough
    For 80% of your salary which would be around 700 a month if you were a LTD. Not really a comparison.

    The only slight positive here is if you were at a private company through a limited in exactly the same situation its likely you would have been finished quite a bit earlier.
    Last edited by northernladuk; 20 May 2020, 00:56.

    Leave a comment:

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