Direction & Control

[SimonMac]

Just admit it and go permie. You will never leave....

Why when I can keep charging contractor rates and just declare inside if it gets that way

[eek]

The Programme of work I am on at the moment is coming to an end, I am basically on a retainer until the 14th September in case anything goes wrong during the warranty period, as such the permie PM I am working with at the moment has been reassigned to another project and wants to take me with him. My logic is in agreeing to help them out will potentially lead to longer term engagement on this new piece of work

What red flags should I be looking out for when it comes to making sure there is no D&C blue lights, I assume just because they asked me if I can help out on the other failing project rather than telling me they are moving me while I have no work is not enough?

Just admit it and go permie. You will never leave....

[perplexed]

Good question. It was a consultancy not an agency par se. I think at the end of the day if the client agrees the agency will do what they are told but good point.

After all this time, statistical probability dictates I'd make at most one good point.

I'm intrigued by this to a degree because a theoretical situation could involve being taken on by a client specifically to work for a "bug fixing" project. Contract could well state you're working on that particular project/team, fixing bugs that are reported. Bugs could well be across numerous projects, legacy systems etc, all hived away across different projects. Client uses difference project codes etc.

It would thus be interesting to see how that would be defined/interpreted. Would the fact your contract and working practices show you're engaged by one overseeing project ("bug fixing/support") or could it be interpreted as you'd be performing fixes/support within each specific app/legacy system project, thus "shunted around"? That could get very interesting, especially given bugs/issues could get reported at any time.

[northernladuk]

Out of interest, were you direct or through an agency?

If direct, a good relationship with the client would facilitate what you describe. Would an agency agree to aid you in that way as readily?

Good question. It was a consultancy not an agency par se. I think at the end of the day if the client agrees the agency will do what they are told but good point.

[perplexed]

I am just a bit nervous of email acceptances too many times. There has to be a point where HMRC could argue the overarching engagement counts and the constant changes by email are just paperwork trying to fix the fact that you have become part and parcel. Maybe I am being a bit too pedantic here.

I was at my last gig a long time but had a really good relationship with the client so was able to terminate my contract every time the work changed. Bit of a double whammy here because in most cases this was before the end of the agreed contract so I was demonstrating risk by being finished finished earlier than the contract. In one case the two pieces of work had a gap of a 10 days between them so got them to terminate my current contract citing not enough work to complete the contract and then start a new contract 10 days later. Nice IR35 defence. I suppose they could use the overarching engagement as I mentioned in the first paragraph but as IR35 is on a contract by contract basis they will struggle to demonstrate I was part and parcel. Again, maybe overkill but didn't take anytime to sort and have a nice pile of termination letters and complete contracts.

You said that might not be an option as they won't give you a new contract so definitely a new schedule and offer of work which you then accept. Try and keep the wording of the offers simple. Don't for gods sake accept anything that says 'Due to your current work finishing we would like you to...' but I know you know that.

Out of interest, were you direct or through an agency?

If direct, a good relationship with the client would facilitate what you describe. Would an agency agree to aid you in that way as readily?

[northernladuk]

I am just a bit nervous of email acceptances too many times. There has to be a point where HMRC could argue the overarching engagement counts and the constant changes by email are just paperwork trying to fix the fact that you have become part and parcel. Maybe I am being a bit too pedantic here.

I was at my last gig a long time but had a really good relationship with the client so was able to terminate my contract every time the work changed. Bit of a double whammy here because in most cases this was before the end of the agreed contract so I was demonstrating risk by being finished finished earlier than the contract. In one case the two pieces of work had a gap of a 10 days between them so got them to terminate my current contract citing not enough work to complete the contract and then start a new contract 10 days later. Nice IR35 defence. I suppose they could use the overarching engagement as I mentioned in the first paragraph but as IR35 is on a contract by contract basis they will struggle to demonstrate I was part and parcel. Again, maybe overkill but didn't take anytime to sort and have a nice pile of termination letters and complete contracts.

You said that might not be an option as they won't give you a new contract so definitely a new schedule and offer of work which you then accept. Try and keep the wording of the offers simple. Don't for gods sake accept anything that says 'Due to your current work finishing we would like you to...' but I know you know that.

[SimonMac]

Don't just agree to take the work on. Get them to write a new schedule for the extra work detailing exactly what you will be doing. This IMO makes it a piece of won work rather than being re-assigned at the clients whim. If you get on with the client well get them to issue another contract for it, not just a new schedule. IMO this way shows the client would like to engage your services to carry out another specific piece of work and you had the option to not enter in to the agreement.

Just being shifted with no paper trail is the big fail here. Treat it as a completely new piece of work as if you would at a new client. No need to go that far in reality IMO but it's the safest way.

Got a chat with the PM to go over what they want, will get them to follow it up with an email which hopefully will start to give me the paper trail I need, I doubt I will get a new contract out if it, they seem to just keep extending me at the moment!

[TheFaQQer]

I assume just because they asked me if I can help out on the other failing project rather than telling me they are moving me while I have no work is not enough?

That would be my interpretation - get them to put it in writing as a request if possible. Failing that, send them an email (bcc yourself) which indicates your acceptance of the new project role in response to their request.

[northernladuk]

Don't just agree to take the work on. Get them to write a new schedule for the extra work detailing exactly what you will be doing. This IMO makes it a piece of won work rather than being re-assigned at the clients whim. If you get on with the client well get them to issue another contract for it, not just a new schedule. IMO this way shows the client would like to engage your services to carry out another specific piece of work and you had the option to not enter in to the agreement.

Just being shifted with no paper trail is the big fail here. Treat it as a completely new piece of work as if you would at a new client. No need to go that far in reality IMO but it's the safest way.

[SimonMac]

The Programme of work I am on at the moment is coming to an end, I am basically on a retainer until the 14th September in case anything goes wrong during the warranty period, as such the permie PM I am working with at the moment has been reassigned to another project and wants to take me with him. My logic is in agreeing to help them out will potentially lead to longer term engagement on this new piece of work

What red flags should I be looking out for when it comes to making sure there is no D&C blue lights, I assume just because they asked me if I can help out on the other failing project rather than telling me they are moving me while I have no work is not enough?