Reply to: Any IR35 implications?

[northernladuk]

No, it means that you cannot effectively rely on lack of D&C as a defence, which leaves two other branches to use as a defence - lack of MOO and RoS.

If you can effectively prove one of those two, then that's your defence - you only need one of the three, rather than all three.

Riiiight and the RoS is gonna work if they have that attitude. But yes you are correct.

[DirtyDog]

It means you have little to no defence to an IR35 investigation now?

No, it means that you cannot effectively rely on lack of D&C as a defence, which leaves two other branches to use as a defence - lack of MOO and RoS.

If you can effectively prove one of those two, then that's your defence - you only need one of the three, rather than all three.

[psychocandy]

I've had contracts reviewed within 24 hours.

So even if the agent gives you the contract on Friday afternoon delaying your start until Tuesday or Wednesday will not p*ss the client off.

Some agencies try the trick of giving the contract as late as possible on Friday to try and force you just to accept it.

WSS. Qdos normally do in a day if you ask them nicely. Dead good they are too.

[riffpie]

Agreed. Agency I reckon.

I've had a few trying to stick in the contract that I need to agree 'leave' with them, the agency. I always say no way I'll discuss with client and let you know if you really want to but you're not having control over it.

Although did this once and agency replied saying 'yes thats ok we will authorise that'. Even though it was all sorted with client etc. So next time I just didnt tell the agency and let them work it out afterwards from timesheets.

They always drop it straight away to be honest. Like SE says, if they can get the contractor to agree to be there every day then, potentially, its a few more quid for them since theres no zero days for them.

My current agent expects me to notify them if I'm going to be out of the office at all. Yeh, right, ok.

[psychocandy]

Ah sorry, i forgot to say - I dug out my old contract and it existed in that too, so it feels a bit awkward asking for it to change now. I know my 'handler' at clientCo won't mind, and it's a few weeks yet until the old schedule expires, so unless HR have an issue It should be ok. Plus it's an opportunity to make it clear that I won't accept it should there be a bigger extension after this surplus budget is used up, when the stakes will be higher (I.e. i don't want to disappear to a beach for a fortnight before a fresh 6 month stint only to return to find that the clause removal is a showstopper).

Oooh. Should have noticed this first time around....

Makes things harder now.

[psychocandy]

That is a silly clause likely put in by the agency to ensure they don't lose revenue.

Contractors don't have annual or any other kind of leave. You are either available or not, so the clause is meaningless.

Talk to the client and confirm they don't have a problem with you taking a half day here or there for something like a dental appointment, or a full day when you can only get a GP's appointment at some stupid time. Then get the clause removed by pointing this out.

If the agency doesn't want you to go on holiday the contract needs to be worded differently. However don't offer them the wording.

Agreed. Agency I reckon.

I've had a few trying to stick in the contract that I need to agree 'leave' with them, the agency. I always say no way I'll discuss with client and let you know if you really want to but you're not having control over it.

Although did this once and agency replied saying 'yes thats ok we will authorise that'. Even though it was all sorted with client etc. So next time I just didnt tell the agency and let them work it out afterwards from timesheets.

They always drop it straight away to be honest. Like SE says, if they can get the contractor to agree to be there every day then, potentially, its a few more quid for them since theres no zero days for them.

[riffpie]

Hey.
I'm not bothered too much about the practicalities of this clause as it's only for a small extension for now, but is this an IR35 hint?

I can't remember if it was mentioned in the original contract (i don't recall it) but i've always had no intention of ever asking for permission to go on holiday (negotiating a convenient time is a different matter). It does seem like a perfectly reasonable thing for a client to ask for though, although it does seem a little contradictory in a contract with a RoS.



Ta.

Sounds a lot like a clause a previous client put in a "Contractors Code of Conduct" for me to sign after I went on a long weekend with pretty much no notice. It's probably in response to some other guy taking time off without warning.

[jamesbrown]

You might want to test your RoS

Lesson learned - as Sue mentioned, you can generally get a quick turnaround on the review. Ignore any pressure from the agent - they'd be more stuffed trying to find someone else at short notice.

[northernladuk]

Thanks for the advise guys.

You do mean advice don't you?

[SpontaneousOrder]

I've had contracts reviewed within 24 hours.

So even if the agent gives you the contract on Friday afternoon delaying your start until Tuesday or Wednesday will not p*ss the client off.

Some agencies try the trick of giving the contract as late as possible on Friday to try and force you just to accept it.

In this case i'm pretty sure the rush was engineered by the agent because they knew I had a second interview to go to somewhere else the following day (which I went to anyway but didn't get the role). I'll get everything bulletproof next time; quitting your permie job and telling everyone "don't worry, it'll be fine" for 6 weeks can carry some pressure, so in that instance I reluctantly let the agent bully me through fear of it falling through


Thanks for the advise guys.

[northernladuk]

At least it'll only be 5 months caught inside if it came to it? No doubt a proper ball ache though.

That is the time frame they will win hands down, it's the past 6 years worth of digging and heartache that might come with it that will be ugly. A ball ache indeed. I don't even know if getting IR35 insurance is going to work for you due to you not getting it reviewed and it being historic.

A messy lesson learned at least.

[SpontaneousOrder]

Did finding this in your main contract not make your blood run cold? It means you have little to no defence to an IR35 investigation now? You said you weren't that bothered about it in a 1 month extension but that isn't the case now? Your up tulip creek without a paddle.

3 days is more than enough to get it reviewed and look what it is going to cost you if you get caught. Don't start a contract until it has been reviewed even if it means starting a day or two later.

At least it'll only be 5 months caught inside if it came to it? No doubt a proper ball ache though.

[SueEllen]

I've had contracts reviewed within 24 hours.

So even if the agent gives you the contract on Friday afternoon delaying your start until Tuesday or Wednesday will not p*ss the client off.

Some agencies try the trick of giving the contract as late as possible on Friday to try and force you just to accept it.

[northernladuk]

Ah sorry, i forgot to say - I dug out my old contract and it existed in that too, so it feels a bit awkward asking for it to change now. I know my 'handler' at clientCo won't mind, and it's a few weeks yet until the old schedule expires, so unless HR have an issue It should be ok. Plus it's an opportunity to make it clear that I won't accept it should there be a bigger extension after this surplus budget is used up, when the stakes will be higher (I.e. i don't want to disappear to a beach for a fortnight before a fresh 6 month stint only to return to find that the clause removal is a showstopper).

Did finding this in your main contract not make your blood run cold? It means you have little to no defence to an IR35 investigation now? You said you weren't that bothered about it in a 1 month extension but that isn't the case now? Your up tulip creek without a paddle.

3 days is more than enough to get it reviewed and look what it is going to cost you if you get caught. Don't start a contract until it has been reviewed even if it means starting a day or two later.

[SpontaneousOrder]

The schedule describes the piece of work to be done within the overall contractual agreement, so an extension does only need a new schedule under the same contract unless, of course, some fundamental Ts&Cs have to change. But as I said, my reaction would be to tell the agency to fold that clause until it's all corners and insert it somewhere dark. If the client wants to keep you, tell the agency you want to keep the original agreement, with the only acceptable change to the previous schedule being a new timeframe.

And if they argue ask the client to explain it to them in words they will understand.

Ah sorry, i forgot to say - I dug out my old contract and it existed in that too, so it feels a bit awkward asking for it to change now. I know my 'handler' at clientCo won't mind, and it's a few weeks yet until the old schedule expires, so unless HR have an issue It should be ok. Plus it's an opportunity to make it clear that I won't accept it should there be a bigger extension after this surplus budget is used up, when the stakes will be higher (I.e. i don't want to disappear to a beach for a fortnight before a fresh 6 month stint only to return to find that the clause removal is a showstopper).