Reply to: Frustrating Client - advice please

[Ticktock]

Essentially the problem in slightly more detail is this:

1. A key objective for this project it to 'bring the perm staff along' training them etc. The staff have little or no experience and aren't interested in learning, as unfortunately they think they know everything.

I see a problem here. Clients often seem to think that knowing how something works, and being able to show other people how it works, is the same as training them on it. I see a lot of roles advertised for BAs and PMs where the description includes training, less often in dev roles.

As a functional trainer I take the view that the actual button pressing is only a small part of the training I deliver. There's a lot more I do, which can address points such as "staff... aren't interested in learning, as unfortunately they think they know everything."

One answer would be that perhaps the clients expectations of what they want you to deliver don't match your areas of expertise and experience, and need resetting.
Another answer is that I'm always happy to quote for work.

[amorts]

Essentially the problem in slightly more detail is this:

1. A key objective for this project it to 'bring the perm staff along' training them etc. The staff have little or no experience and aren't interested in learning, as unfortunately they think they know everything.

2. Because of this everything I know that works, because I've done it 100 odd times gets questioned by these guys. So I find myself spending a lot of time and effort arguing and presenting these points which after several months becomes hugely draining and demotivating.

3. Essentially everything I put to the client is undermined and questioned. Every single design decision is laboured as you can imagine.

So bottom line is I am not getting anything back out of this role apart from frustration and a lot of pain (and of course some cash). My feeling is these perm guys are at the limit of their ability now and aren't interested in learning anything else.

Unless I can deliver the project externally if you like (which is where the opportunity lies) there is no further value I can add to the client.

[lukemg]

WTAS - wow, some pretty good advice on here.
As you are contract, you can always walk - that alone gets me through many work related headf**ks.
Ok, you want to stay, then I would treat it as a pitch for business.
So - You need to evaluate very clearly the benefits of doing the work, money talks, everything else is 'nice to have' but not persuasive. If you can't do this, forget it.
Next - A clear path to realise the benefits, what it will cost, how long will it take. If you can't do this with reasonable accuracy, forget it.
If you have both these and the story is compelling, you need buy in from someone senior who has budget and wants to chalk their name up against a win (plenty are happy to take zero risks and hope no-one notices them).
You are dealing with middle rankers who dont control the budget and dont have the juice to push this through, that needs to change.
Good luck...

[AnthonyQuinn]

1. Keep head down.
2. Keep invoicing.

HTH

+1 +1 Best advice ever. Should be added as a sticky in general for contractors frustrated with client indecision, lack of clarity, not enough work blah blah blah blah

[darrylmg]

Are you taking a cut from your mate?
If not, why not?

Now there's two of you to talk some sense into them. Well done

[amorts]

So good news, I managed to get an ally in the form of another contractor and good mate in there.

Starting to make life a little easier having someone who can talk the same language.

It's still a massive effort to get the client to make key decisions and takes 10 times as much effort to get the same results here as with other clients!!

[flipFlop]

Any guidance from people?

What precisely is your question?

[Taita]

1. Keep head down.
2. Keep invoicing.

HTH

Yes!

[malvolio]

Surely more someone who advises you on how to tell the time, from your watch?

Nah. Someone who proves to you that your watch is wrong.

[Dallas]

Someone who borrows your watch and spends 3 months on a 100-page powerpoint containing flash charts that noone understands to tell you the time?

FIFY

Invoice in the post

[kevpuk]

Someone who borrows your watch to tell you the time?

Surely more someone who advises you on how to tell the time, from your watch?

[billybiro]

So what so you think a consultant does do then?

Someone who borrows your watch to tell you the time?

[malvolio]

You do? I looked up to you like and older brother.. a much much older brother

One day, Padwan, you will achieve the necessary wisdom. Feel the horse...

[malvolio]

All great advice lads....it really is the stuff I keep telling myself over and over.

Trying to beat the need for workable ITIL processes into a bunch of recalcitrant techies and coders, you'll soon learn that the trick with getting people to accept change is to get them to think it's their idea: "This is what's wrong, what do we need to do to fix it", then kind of lead the conversation the way you know is the right answer (or your version of the answer, anyway). Not easy, but a necessary skill IMVHO

Apart from the subbing out part - do you guys do this regularly? I have never came across anyone who has used that clause before.

I hope I can get my mate in to help me drive some positive action within the next two weeks. In the meantime I'll try to stay calm!

Remember that the contract is to deliver something; how you get there, and to some extent who actually does the work, is really your call. You're not there to do the client's bidding (leave that to the dev team), you're there to meet an objective. As long as you own the contract and are responsible for its delivery, all the RoS says is that you can send in someone else. Personally I tend to be a one-man band, by the nature of what I do, but that's just me.

The old mantra applies - "Think like a business".

[amorts]

All great advice lads....it really is the stuff I keep telling myself over and over.

Apart from the subbing out part - do you guys do this regularly? I have never came across anyone who has used that clause before.

I hope I can get my mate in to help me drive some positive action within the next two weeks. In the meantime I'll try to stay calm!