Reply to: Are agents allowed to send your entire CV to your references??

[SueEllen]

If you want your own data you use the data protection act.

If you want to ask say the council or a government body awkward questions which mustn't contain personal information you use the freedom of information act.

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com


BTW I've previously got references using the DPA.

[jimbo45]

Wrong act - it's the Data Protection Act.

There are no "Freedom of Information Acts"


Incorrect - there is no breach.

There are also no "Data Protection Acts".

There is no legal requirement forcing someone to give a reference but if someone decides to give a reference when when asked to do so, they would be subjected to the law of defamation if the person they give the reference about thinks the reference contains false statements.

The only way of enforcing this is by going to a court of law.

However what court of law is involved depends on what circumstances the reference was provided under so for example if you are my ex-employer and you write sexual discriminatory comments in my reference I could take you to an employment tribunal.

If however you just slag me off I would have to go to the high court.

In both cases I could take both the individual who wrote the reference and the company to court as joint defendants though most people just take the company.

In most cases further action against the perpetrator this isn't necessary as most people don't believe bad references particulary if they are amongst a bunch of good references.

Though there are a minority of companies and organisations who have a history of this and only stop when someone who they have made a false statement about doesn't get a role based on that reference, and takes them to court. The fact the company risks getting bad publicity soon changes how they give references.

I only know this because back in my permie days I worked for an employer who did this and was taken to court so stopped giving detailed references out and prevented staff from giving references about colleagues on company headed paper. I also know other people who were given bad references after they had been discriminated against and took their ex-employer to an employment tribunal.

Hi there
I think YOU are wrong on the Freedom of information act - it's a very useful weapon in getting all sorts of info from utility companies, etc etc etc. Obviously a lot of people haven't kept up with this yet.

https://www.gov.uk/make-a-freedom-of...nformation-act

Also look at Data protection

https://www.gov.uk/data-protection/t...protection-act

Both these links are UK Govt sites so these Acts DO EXIST.

While I said various DATA PROTECTION ACTS - I meant the ACT and its various amendments updates and sub sections -- I think the meaning and intent was clear even if in in actual legal jargon slightly in acurate.

IT contractors I'm sure know what is meant here -- obviously before contemplating any LEGAL positions then consultation with a solicitor or a legal / solictors forum would be a good idea - but in the first instance the post was just meant to open people to possibilities.


Cheers
jimbo

[SueEllen]

Hi there
Interesting Legal situation this one

You could try that "You are entitled to this information via the Freedom of Information Acts".

Wrong act - it's the Data Protection Act.

There are no "Freedom of Information Acts"

If ANY PRIVATE information is given out to 3rd parties WITHOUT YOUR consent then the person giving the information out could be guilty of breaches of the various "Data Protection Acts".

Incorrect - there is no breach.

There are also no "Data Protection Acts".

There is no legal requirement forcing someone to give a reference but if someone decides to give a reference when when asked to do so, they would be subjected to the law of defamation if the person they give the reference about thinks the reference contains false statements.

The only way of enforcing this is by going to a court of law.

However what court of law is involved depends on what circumstances the reference was provided under so for example if you are my ex-employer and you write sexual discriminatory comments in my reference I could take you to an employment tribunal.

If however you just slag me off I would have to go to the high court.

In both cases I could take both the individual who wrote the reference and the company to court as joint defendants though most people just take the company.

In most cases further action against the perpetrator this isn't necessary as most people don't believe bad references particulary if they are amongst a bunch of good references.

Though there are a minority of companies and organisations who have a history of this and only stop when someone who they have made a false statement about doesn't get a role based on that reference, and takes them to court. The fact the company risks getting bad publicity soon changes how they give references.

I only know this because back in my permie days I worked for an employer who did this and was taken to court so stopped giving detailed references out and prevented staff from giving references about colleagues on company headed paper. I also know other people who were given bad references after they had been discriminated against and took their ex-employer to an employment tribunal.

[jimbo45]

As I suspected, this one company provided a negative reference for me, and when I asked the agent over the phone he verbally told me things I did not agree with and I believe this company has misrepresented me when providing a reference. They could have easily not provided one instead of providing a negative one. I was only there for a mere 3 months and every single other reference from my nearly 10 years of contracting history is excellent. Though it shouldn't affect if I get the job or not (remains to be seen though), I am very angry at both this company and this agent. The agent has also gotten his criteria wrong in asking me for refs and the client co has had to come back saying they need more info.

I have asked this agent to fwd me on what information was given to him by the said company but he is refusing to do so!

Surely I am entitled to know what info he is holding on me?!

P

Hi there
Interesting Legal situation this one

You could try that "You are entitled to this information via the Freedom of Information Acts".

Incidentally the whole question of references is actually a dubious area these days

If ANY PRIVATE information is given out to 3rd parties WITHOUT YOUR consent then the person giving the information out could be guilty of breaches of the various "Data Protection Acts".

Another problem is WHO is giving the reference -- for example I'm over 60 years old and been in this business for "Donkeys Years" -- who is actually Qualified to give a reference -- it's like the apprentice being able to decide on whether the craftsman is OK --especially if these sort of jobs are fairly trivial 2 or 3 month gigs.

Most decent companies I know do NOT actually allow their HR dept to supply references - but only say person XXXX was employed as yyyy between dates aa/bb/yy and cc/dd/yy.

One also has to be careful as this sort of stuff can easily appear on facebook and twitter - and then you are in serious trouble.

For example you gave a reference and the candidate turns out rubbish -- then YOUR name is mud, or you give a bad reference - then you get taken to court for character defamation -- honestly it's NOT WORTH IT these days to even THINK of getting involved in this area. If someone asks YOU for a reference be very careful even if it's your best mate.


My philosophy is that I will neither GIVE or REQUEST references - it's not worth the hassle -- I'm not sure what's going on recently but there seems to be a whole slew of agencies asking for this type of rubbish before you even get a client interview - which means if you have say 17 possibilities with 9 different agencies all asking for references- it means some por sod is going to get pestered over and over again. And in any case what guarantee t hat the person GIVING the reference is honest anyway.

I think the Latin quotation is appropriate here
quis custodiet ipsos custodies

(Who guards the Guards)

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

IMO if the client can't make up their mind for people doing a 3 month gig (typical length of contracts to start with) without having to resort to 3rd party "references" then it's not worth bothering with them. Their selection process should be robust enough to weed out rubbish candidates -- it's relatively easy to spot who's for real and who'se just plain B/S'ing. In any case most of these jobs have something like a 1 week trial where they can virtually get rid of someone for almost no reason.

I think I could make a fortune on supplying "References" -- I might set up site in Albania say "http://www.Contractor references.al" and charge 30 GBP for each reference supplied !!!!

Here's an idea for someone.

Cheers
jimbo

[Peter Loew]

Thankfully this negative ref didn't affect my role offer and I'm starting the new contract very soon, they didn't seem at all bothered, probably because of my other glowing refs. Jmo - I already had the offer, ref checks were after.

Mal, yes I'm a PCG Plus member. Forgot about the legal helpline, will chase that up and see just what the legals options are. Depending on this it may be more trouble than it's worth, otherwise I like the idea of sending them a strong legal letter.

This said I've never had a client co or agency ask me for past 3 years of refs, including personal refs for any CV gaps- not even when I was SC Cleared do I remember this level of reference checking scrutiny!

[jmo21]

As I suspected, this one company provided a negative reference for me, and when I asked the agent over the phone he verbally told me things I did not agree with and I believe this company has misrepresented me when providing a reference. They could have easily not provided one instead of providing a negative one. I was only there for a mere 3 months and every single other reference from my nearly 10 years of contracting history is excellent. Though it shouldn't affect if I get the job or not (remains to be seen though), I am very angry at both this company and this agent. The agent has also gotten his criteria wrong in asking me for refs and the client co has had to come back saying they need more info.

I have asked this agent to fwd me on what information was given to him by the said company but he is refusing to do so!

Surely I am entitled to know what info he is holding on me?!

P

I'm actually amazed the agent bothered to tell you.

He could have just binned your CV and ignored your emails/calls, or just told you they were not putting you forward for the role.

Sounds like you've got the blame for something as it's easier to blame the contractor.

I'm not sure how I'd react in that situation, but my initial feeling is that it'd be more trouble than its worth. Proving whatever statement they have made is incorrect will be very difficult. I imagine it comes down to he said/she said on that project.

So maybe you lose out on this new role. Make a massive fuss trying to get info and the agency may not want to deal with you again. Let it slide, the agency might forget 1 bad reference when it comes to the next role.

Massively annoying, yes.

Worth the trouble of chasing it, I'm not so sure.

[malvolio]

Thanks, I will send the agency a letter of recorded delivery requesting a copy of the reference.

With regards to legal matters, what kind of statements should be in the letter? I will seek legal advice in any case and do everything through a solicitor if it turns out that any information in the reference is false or misleading - if it seems worth it.

On a side note, I have also seen that a couple of individuals I worked with have masked that company off their LinkedIn profiles saying they were simply 'freelancing' during that period. Can't be a coincidence.

You are of course a PCG member, so call the free legal helpline...

[Peter Loew]

You need to do it formally in writing and you need to ensure they get your request i.e. as it's a business use recorded or registered delivery - read this.

Once you get the reference get a solicitor to write a letter to the company threatening both the individuals who wrote the reference, and the company separately with legal action. That should at least get them to change how they write references.

Years ago I was told how to write negative references without stating anything negative. You simply miss things out.

Thanks, I will send the agency a letter of recorded delivery requesting a copy of the reference.

With regards to legal matters, what kind of statements should be in the letter? I will seek legal advice in any case and do everything through a solicitor if it turns out that any information in the reference is false or misleading - if it seems worth it.

On a side note, I have also seen that a couple of individuals I worked with have masked that company off their LinkedIn profiles saying they were simply 'freelancing' during that period. Can't be a coincidence.

[SueEllen]

Hmm, interesting. I thought the further obligations imposed were actually in section 20.

I read an article that lead me to believe they had a responsibility to make sure they meet (2) and (3) and normal means of this included references. I can't find the article but the text above is from.

To be fair I know with permanent employers they often don't check references until either:
1. You have finished your probation period, OR,
2. They need to make redundancies and sacking people is cheaper than paying out for redundancy.

So I don't expect agencies to do any better unless they are required to due to the industry their client operates in.

[SueEllen]

As I suspected, this one company provided a negative reference for me, and when I asked the agent over the phone he verbally told me things I did not agree with and I believe this company has misrepresented me when providing a reference. They could have easily not provided one instead of providing a negative one. I was only there for a mere 3 months and every single other reference from my nearly 10 years of contracting history is excellent. Though it shouldn't affect if I get the job or not (remains to be seen though), I am very angry at both this company and this agent. The agent has also gotten his criteria wrong in asking me for refs and the client co has had to come back saying they need more info.

I have asked this agent to fwd me on what information was given to him by the said company but he is refusing to do so!

Surely I am entitled to know what info he is holding on me?!

P

You need to do it formally in writing and you need to ensure they get your request i.e. as it's a business use recorded or registered delivery - read this.

Once you get the reference get a solicitor to write a letter to the company threatening both the individuals who wrote the reference, and the company separately with legal action. That should at least get them to change how they write references.

Years ago I was told how to write negative references without stating anything negative. You simply miss things out.

[Peter Loew]

Royal Agent F** Up

As I suspected, this one company provided a negative reference for me, and when I asked the agent over the phone he verbally told me things I did not agree with and I believe this company has misrepresented me when providing a reference. They could have easily not provided one instead of providing a negative one. I was only there for a mere 3 months and every single other reference from my nearly 10 years of contracting history is excellent. Though it shouldn't affect if I get the job or not (remains to be seen though), I am very angry at both this company and this agent. The agent has also gotten his criteria wrong in asking me for refs and the client co has had to come back saying they need more info.

I have asked this agent to fwd me on what information was given to him by the said company but he is refusing to do so!

Surely I am entitled to know what info he is holding on me?!

P

[petergriffin]

Didn't we already establish on the other mammoth thread that:

Where
1) professional qualifications are required or where
2) applicants are to work with vulnerable persons or children,
You should obtain copies of the relevant qualifications or authorisation, obtain at least two references from people who are not relatives of the applicant and undertake a criminal records bureau check of the applicant.

?

So in other words if the contract doesn't require a CRB, there's no legal requirement to obtain the two references and even so, the law doesn't state they are required in advance.

[kevpuk]

Agencies not carrying out proper (and arguably legal) diligence. There is a novel concept.

Completely unheard of, unfathomable

[northernladuk]

When I've explicity opted-in my references haven't always be checked up on by the agency. If it is required most of the time the client does it themselves likewise with verifying ID.

Agencies not carrying out proper (and arguably legal) diligence. There is a novel concept.

[northernladuk]

That's not entirely accurate. That's usually just something invented by the agencies to con people into opting out. Also, being pedantic, you're not opting in.

Here's the relevant bit from the regulations:



On point B, that's solved in two stages: 1. By submitting my CV and giving an implied warranty to the agency that they're accurate and 2. by interview with the end client. I never opt out and genuinely cannot remember any legitimate agency asking for references before submission to a client. If an agency got pedantic about it before submission to the end client then I'd just decline to apply, none have so far.

As clarification though, I understand that there are certain secure industries where the agency must get prior references, that's perfectly fine but they're not where I work.

Hmm, interesting. I thought the further obligations imposed were actually in section 20.

egulation 20(2) provides that if an employment business receives or obtains information which gives it reasonable grounds (i.e. a realistic degree of certainty) to believe that a work-seeker is unsuitable for the position s/he has been supplied to a hirer for, it must inform the hirer of the information it has and end the supply of that temporary work-seeker without delay . So, for example, if a temporary teacher is supplied into a school and during the course of that supply the employment business receives information about that teacher, through a reference or other reliable report, which shows s/he is not suitable to work with children, the employment business must tell the hirer and remove the teacher from the assignment without delay. (Note: “without delay” is defined as “the same day, or where that is not reasonably practicable, on the next business day” (Regulation 20(7))

Regulation 20(3) provides that if an employment business receives or obtains information which indicates or suggests that the work-seeker may be unsuitable for the position it has supplied him/her to carry out, but the information does not give sufficient certainty to enable the employment business to rely on it without further investigation, it must immediately

I read an article that lead me to believe they had a responsibility to make sure they meet (2) and (3) and normal means of this included references. I can't find the article but the text above is from.

http://www.bis.gov.uk/files/file24248.pdf