Reply to: refuse perm offer advice

[northernladuk]

I was thinking along the lines of it would put you outside IR35 because although you are doing an ongoing support role which would place you inside IR35, the fixed duration of the clients contract with the customers would hopefully place you outside IR35. I don't really see the relevance of how long IR35 has been around, I've not been contracting that long and it still seems to be quite difficult to determine if you are inside or outside.

Tosh... As you said yourself it is difficult to work out if you are absolutely in or out so why the simplistic comment that a fixed duration contract is enough to place you outside?

There are many pointers to being in or out and all need looking at carefully and getting a specialist to help. Most importantly is how the client treats you and working conditions. Just because it is fixed term it doesn't mean the client treats you and makes you act like a permie.

[Sausage Surprise]

Just tell him you need your contract money for school fees, your gambling addiction and crack whores. They'll understand and give you a 6 month extension.

[BigRed]

I was thinking along the lines of it would put you outside IR35 because although you are doing an ongoing support role which would place you inside IR35, the fixed duration of the clients contract with the customers would hopefully place you outside IR35. I don't really see the relevance of how long IR35 has been around, I've not been contracting that long and it still seems to be quite difficult to determine if you are inside or outside.

[malvolio]

If you are in a position which is supporting a fixed term contract that the client has with another company is this good for your IR35 status

Why do you think it relevant? It's how you deliver that support that counts.

FFS, thirteen years of IR35 and people still don't understand what it is.

[BigRed]

If you are in a position which is supporting a fixed term contract that the client has with another company is this good for your IR35 status

[GB9]

Permie?

If you have your own Ltd then if you are a full time contractor you have a permie job already running your own business. In that case any job offer should better what you have already. Talk of going permie implies that what you do is temping, and just helps aid hmrc`s point of view.

[TheFaQQer]

If a contractor felt that the axe was never far from falling prematurely due to a) work drying up, b) a cheaper resource being identified, c) budget constraints, then (imo) he/she probably isn’t caught by IR35. On that basis, switching to permie might be a good option for them.

Tosh.

If you have no right of substitution, there is direction and control and there is MoO, then you are IR35 caught. That has nothing to do with having a fear of whether you are going to be axed or not.

I suggest you read up on what IR35 is and how it is determined if you think otherwise.

[Bronco Billy]

How on earth do you work this out? It would be a pointer for the exact opposite. Same job but different contract conditions is a pointer to disguised permie.

Just to be clear, I have no idea if any of the above posters considering a permie switch are inside or outside IR35.

However…..

If a contractor were to take up a permie position with a client in an identical role, then I would assume that the most likely reason for doing so would be the extra (perceived) job security. (Career progression / cross-training would be secondary factors imo and would involve doing other roles anyway). Any of the permie “perks” can also be obtained on a voluntary basis at your own discretion as a contractor.

If a contractor felt that the axe was never far from falling prematurely due to a) work drying up, b) a cheaper resource being identified, c) budget constraints, then (imo) he/she probably isn’t caught by IR35. On that basis, switching to permie might be a good option for them.

If, however you were able to continue in the role as a contractor (OP indicates extension will be offered) without fear of the axe falling, or hours reduced / forced leave for whatever reason (probably inside IR35) then why would you make the switch ?

That is advice?

It was a little tongue-in-cheek, but I'd stand by it, assuming the requirements were mainly financial.

What has not taking PI/PL/EL insurance got to do with IR35? It is often a contractual obligation and at £250 a year is peanuts should the worst happen.

While not conclusive, having the relevant insurances (and any contractual obligations to have them) in place would be a pointer to being outside IR35.

Client obliged to renew? lol

I'm glad you found something in there that DID amuse you !

[northernladuk]

Switching to permie would be a good pointer for the original contract being outside IR35 IMO.

How on earth do you work this out? It would be a pointer for the exact opposite. Same job but different contract conditions is a pointer to disguised permie.

Why would anyone in their right mind want to switch to permie if they were caught by IR35 ? It’s you personally who is required, hence no ROS. Presumably therefore, you wouldn’t be easy to replace ? Also, if you were to run out of work, the client will provide you with alternative work or pay you for doing nothing.

But no one is irreplaceable. It is a person that can do the role they want, not particularly you.

My advice for any IR35 caught contractor would be as follows:-

1) Continue contracting, while also continuing to bill your extortionate contractor rate.

2) Don’t bother wasting your hard-earned money on PCG membership, PL, PI, EL insurance.

3) Pay your full amount of tax and NICs on a PAYE basis.

4) Fill your boots, while the client is obliged to keep renewing your contract for the rest of your life.

That is advice?

What has not taking PI/PL/EL insurance got to do with IR35? It is often a contractual obligation and at £250 a year is peanuts should the worst happen.

Client obliged to renew? lol

[northernladuk]

With regards to NLUK's point about IR35 status once offered a permie role, how does this stack up if you're providing services that they can't fulfilled internally whilst they look to recruit a permanent member of staff? Am I at risk of IR35 even if they are actively seeking a permanent replacement?

It is a fine line and has to be taking on a case by case basis IMO. If it is really to bring in temporary skills that cannot be resourced elsewhere and you can prove this then yes it is fine but more often than not nowadays it is the standard way non-IT clients resource their IT staff. They just don't want to take on permies and deal with the hassle so turn to the flexible workforce. If you don't keep your eyes open you could quite easily fall in to a role the client sees as enduring and will be managed as a permie so putting you firmly inside. If they have an enduring role, put you in it and then make no effort to backfill you then they consider you as a permanent part of the organisation.

[TheFaQQer]

4) Fill your boots, while the client is obliged to keep renewing your contract for the rest of your life.

Or until the contract ends.

The idea that you will have a contract for the rest of your life with the same client is ridiculous.

[Bronco Billy]

I've been offered a permie role and did as others have mentioned on here and politely turned it down saying that I'd made a conscious decision to go contracting and if I was to take a permanent position now I'd probably look back in years to come with regret.

With regards to NLUK's point about IR35 status once offered a permie role, how does this stack up if you're providing services that they can't fulfilled internally whilst they look to recruit a permanent member of staff? Am I at risk of IR35 even if they are actively seeking a permanent replacement?

Switching to permie would be a good pointer for the original contract being outside IR35 IMO.

Why would anyone in their right mind want to switch to permie if they were caught by IR35 ? It’s you personally who is required, hence no ROS. Presumably therefore, you wouldn’t be easy to replace ? Also, if you were to run out of work, the client will provide you with alternative work or pay you for doing nothing.

My advice for any IR35 caught contractor would be as follows:-

1) Continue contracting, while also continuing to bill your extortionate contractor rate.

2) Don’t bother wasting your hard-earned money on PCG membership, PL, PI, EL insurance.

3) Pay your full amount of tax and NICs on a PAYE basis.

4) Fill your boots, while the client is obliged to keep renewing your contract for the rest of your life.

[Murder1]

I've been offered a permie role and did as others have mentioned on here and politely turned it down saying that I'd made a conscious decision to go contracting and if I was to take a permanent position now I'd probably look back in years to come with regret.

With regards to NLUK's point about IR35 status once offered a permie role, how does this stack up if you're providing services that they can't fulfilled internally whilst they look to recruit a permanent member of staff? Am I at risk of IR35 even if they are actively seeking a permanent replacement?

[Antman]

standard response is - 'are you f***ing joking ? If I didn't know I was leaving in 2 months I would top myself right now....' seems to work.

[lukemg]

standard response is - 'are you f***ing joking ? If I didn't know I was leaving in 2 months I would top myself right now....' seems to work.