Reply to: Recruiters and agencies making a fuss over my name...

[SueEllen]

Wow, thanks for your advice everyone!

It seems gaining a few years of experience is the best way forward then. The thing is that these graduate schemes are really becoming the same old crap now... this is the format they usually follow and you must pass each stage to move to the next:

Online application sift > Psychometric tests > Telephone or Skype interview > Face-to-face interview > Assessment day with HR + Technical interviews + Group activity > Final selection board (Civil Service usually) or Offer of Employment.

Recruitment duration in private sector ~4+ weeks.

Recruitment duration in public sector ~8+ weeks (SC), ~28+ weeks (DV).

Where do I fit in? I usually pass all stages until the final stage. The whole process is mentally exhausting.

That's the entire point of them - you don't want to employ someone who flakes at the first signs of stress.

Last night I decided to also apply for other roles that are advertised as Junior or Trainee but no degree required - to increase my chances of getting those few valuable years of experience. The support type jobs (application support, 1st line support etc.) seem to fit with my previous work experience (I got about 1.5 years at a well known 5* resort and a popular restaurant chain, and towards the end I even had to train new staff before I left - I think I can combine my customer service skills with my computing background).

Try not to get stuck in support type roles.

[Boo]

Hi,

I have been lurking here for a while reading. For some time now I've been trying to get into the Government sector where it seems most technical roles require at least SC clearance and above.

SC cleared roles are a PITA if you dfon't already have it. I think your difficulties are more down to that than your name, tbh. Just tell the agencies you are UK national and have a UK passport, don't let them get hung up on the name thing.

Boo2

[Kurzon]

Wow, thanks for your advice everyone!

It seems gaining a few years of experience is the best way forward then. The thing is that these graduate schemes are really becoming the same old crap now... this is the format they usually follow and you must pass each stage to move to the next:

Online application sift > Psychometric tests > Telephone or Skype interview > Face-to-face interview > Assessment day with HR + Technical interviews + Group activity > Final selection board (Civil Service usually) or Offer of Employment.

Recruitment duration in private sector ~4+ weeks.

Recruitment duration in public sector ~8+ weeks (SC), ~28+ weeks (DV).

Where do I fit in? I usually pass all stages until the final stage. The whole process is mentally exhausting.

Last night I decided to also apply for other roles that are advertised as Junior or Trainee but no degree required - to increase my chances of getting those few valuable years of experience. The support type jobs (application support, 1st line support etc.) seem to fit with my previous work experience (I got about 1.5 years at a well known 5* resort and a popular restaurant chain, and towards the end I even had to train new staff before I left - I think I can combine my customer service skills with my computing background).

apply for the same job with the same CV sending one copy with the name 'John Jones' the other with 'Hussain Bin Laden' then claim gross discrimination when they ask only 'John Jones' for interview, claim some money off them and you're sorted.

Lol, my name isn't that bad, but it is immediately obvious that it's Islam/Asian-type name, however I myself am not a Muslim.

And yeah I tried something similar in the past. I'd rather not report it at risk of this going public (I've seen stuff like this in the news before) and then committing career suicide, I doubt anyone would want to hire me. Besides that, I do understand that people will discriminate all the time and make assumptions in their head, it's very difficult to control - we all do it, it's the same thing that happens during interviews depending on how you've dressed and your body language really.

Doesn't mean I don't find it infuriating though. Just wish Islam wasn't in the spotlight until the next decade or something.

[SueEllen]

apply for the same job with the same CV sending one copy with the name 'John Jones' the other with 'Hussain Bin Laden' then claim gross discrimination when they ask only 'John Jones' for interview, claim some money off them and you're sorted.

WHS

On a more serious note your lack of experience is the real problem. Get yourself a job on a graduate scheme or work in a SME that gives you some responsibility.

Recruiters and HR like to make small talk some of which can be offensive due to how thick some of them are. So turn the tables - if they ask you about your name ask them the origins of theirs. Most of them won't have a clue you are winding them up and you may find a few who know their grandfather anglicised their surname.

[sbakoola]

apply for the same job with the same CV sending one copy with the name 'John Jones' the other with 'Hussain Bin Laden' then claim gross discrimination when they ask only 'John Jones' for interview, claim some money off them and you're sorted.

[meridian]

As others have said, clients are paying a premium for contractors to be able to come in, do the job, then leave. Even junior/trainee positions would be needing some experience behind them, and these would be more likely to be hourly-rate "temp" data entry drone-type positions and not true contractor positions. A client is unlikely to be securing your services to train you up, knowing that you'll be leaving in 3 or 6 months.

For the best chance, know what roles you're chasing and tailor your cv accordingly. Few employers will care about project work at Uni, it's real world experience and delivering to clients that matters, so highlight anything that shows this.

Regarding your name, Islamic-sounding names are the nom de jour for closer inspection. At various times in the past it might have been Irish, Eastern European, or Indian names that got thrown in the bin. If it's your given name, can you anglicise it? Or use your middle name?

[DaveB]

I'd prefer honesty, rude or not. Yes I am most likely naive to all of this, I have been in academia for all my life.

Typically, how many years of working in a permanent role would you say? Is this the way everyone starts off?

Unless you get *really* lucky you are going to need 2-3 years demonstrable real world experience in your chosen field. This is how most people get started.

As far as employers are concerned your degree is just evidence of a basic level of intelligence and awareness and means nothing in terms of ability to actually do the job.

Contractors are typically expected to turn up, hit the ground running and start delivering immediately. We're hired guns who get taken on because we have a track record of getting things done, often when no-one else is either willing or able to do so. You are expected to be able to get on with it without having to be shown the ropes and trained up first, and with minimal management and direction. Experience is what gets you hired, not your qualifications.

You haven't said what kind of work you are looking for but at this stage your best bet is to get on the graduate recruitment ladder and get a few years under your belt, then start thinking about a move into contracting.

If you really don't want to go that way then your only realistic option is to go looking for your own work, hitting up small businesses directly for web dev work if thats what you want to do and try and build from there.

[Kurzon]

Can we PLEASE PLEASE move this to 'General' ??????

Why?

[Kurzon]

Without wishing to be rude, the things you cite reveal a level of naivety about contracting. Teamwork at university and helping someone with a website aren't nearly enough. You need proof of delivery on projects that are relevant to your clients. When you begin contracting, it's understood that your experience of delivering projects will be in a permie role, but you would still have that history of delivering. Becoming a contractor too soon is also not a good move in terms of professional development. Seriously, take the advice above about learning your trade first, it really is the best thing you can do.

I'd prefer honesty, rude or not. Yes I am most likely naive to all of this, I have been in academia for all my life.

Typically, how many years of working in a permanent role would you say? Is this the way everyone starts off?

[JoeyD]

Can we PLEASE PLEASE move this to 'General' ??????

[jamesbrown]

Before my computer science course at uni, I studied for a year at another uni in computer and electronics. Prior to that I studied for a CCNA qualification and I was a Cisco Network Academy student. Prior to that I had customer service experience (part-time) to compliment my GCSE and A-Level years.

In between all of the above I self-taught various linux distributions, web server management (LAMP mainly), got into web development and custom CMS design etc.

I managed to get a brief contract with a taxi company to develop their website and reservation system as well. Although through a family friend.

During uni it was constant teamwork as well on various assignments along with larger project work for years 2 and 3 (final year project in year 3).

I don't think I have an idealised view, tbh I'm thinking it's going to be extremely tough, that I won't know anything, that it might be hostile, not everyone is going to take a liking to me, people will have different views/opinions on things, I'll be thrown in the deep-end etc. etc. I am very pessimistic actually, and I'm applying only for trainee/junior positions (low pay but I only care about extending my skills at the moment).

Without wishing to be rude, the things you cite reveal a level of naivety about contracting. Teamwork at university and helping someone with a website aren't nearly enough. You need proof of delivery on projects that are relevant to your clients. When you begin contracting, it's understood that your experience of delivering projects will be in a permie role, but you would still have that history of delivering. Becoming a contractor too soon is also not a good move in terms of professional development. Seriously, take the advice above about learning your trade first, it really is the best thing you can do.

[Kurzon]

At the Allah reference the poster above made... my name was picked by my grandparents, but I myself am not a Muslim (I've already had to have this convo before, so many people think I'm a Muslim). I don't have any religion.

[Kurzon]

So no experience, no contracting history, probably an idealised view of what a technical role entails and no understanding of how clearance works. Hmmm...

Before my computer science course at uni, I studied for a year at another uni in computer and electronics. Prior to that I studied for a CCNA qualification and I was a Cisco Network Academy student. Prior to that I had customer service experience (part-time) to compliment my GCSE and A-Level years.

In between all of the above I self-taught various linux distributions, web server management (LAMP mainly), got into web development and custom CMS design etc.

I managed to get a brief contract with a taxi company to develop their website and reservation system as well. Although through a family friend.

During uni it was constant teamwork as well on various assignments along with larger project work for years 2 and 3 (final year project in year 3).

I don't think I have an idealised view, tbh I'm thinking it's going to be extremely tough, that I won't know anything, that it might be hostile, not everyone is going to take a liking to me, people will have different views/opinions on things, I'll be thrown in the deep-end etc. etc. I am very pessimistic actually, and I'm applying only for trainee/junior positions (low pay but I only care about extending my skills at the moment).

If you believe you are being turned down for consideration because of concerns you might not be able to be cleared, there's an email address at the Cabinet Office where you can report it. You won't get an immediate answer though. The Equalities Commission are also interested in such things, bizarrely, so may be worth a phone call.

But learn your trade then worry about getting a contracting job. People are hiring contractors on the basis of their ability to deliver, which means a bit of history delivering things is a good start.

Ok cheers, I will Google those places to report. The thing is I never thought it was an issue until it kept being brought up (informally) by recruiters or the people interviewing me (for clearance purposes), and I also did a test of using an English name briefly for the same roles and they were getting responses.

[malvolio]

So no experience, no contracting history, probably an idealised view of what a technical role entails and no understanding of how clearance works. Hmmm...

If you believe you are being turned down for consideration because of concerns you might not be able to be cleared, there's an email address at the Cabinet Office where you can report it. You won't get an immediate answer though. The Equalities Commission are also interested in such things, bizarrely, so may be worth a phone call.

But learn your trade then worry about getting a contracting job. People are hiring contractors on the basis of their ability to deliver, which means a bit of history delivering things is a good start.

[Kurzon]

Change your name

OR

Record the conversations and report those involved.

OR

Apply directly to the government departments. If it still comes up then report them.

Thanks for your suggestions.

I'm afraid of reporting them, that'll probably make things even worse for me getting on the ladder.

I have seriously considered changing my name, but I can't do it yet until I get my degree certificate first (I want it to be my original name on there). I looked into the whole name changing thing with Deed Poll and it sounds like a lot of hassle getting all my IDs and records updated and replaced... and quite expensive!