Originally posted by psychocandy
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Previously on "Should I bill for days I was told not to attend?"
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Originally posted by malvolio View PostFascinating. 14 years of IR35 case law and precedent and we still have this total lack of understanding of Mutuality. The "bill-and-be-damned" crowd probably should be, but the test is an irreducible minimum of mutuality of obligation. Being paid for not working is not the minimum, regardless of why you are not working.
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Originally posted by northernladuk View PostI think the only point proved here was that your planning is a bit lacking if you managed it on time with no extra effort and having the time off
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Originally posted by Old Greg View PostMaybe the big firms have a late cancellation charge clause in their contracts.
Completely different model to a single bum on seat fighting IR35 with a standard contract they had no input in to.
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Originally posted by psychocandy View PostSounds like a good idea of course. Never really had a problem with client doing this to me though.
About the only time client and I disagreed was one xmas.
Client: do you plan to work between xmas and new year?
Me: yes, as you know, we're mega busy.
Client: Actually we need to save money so please take the time off.
Me: OK up to you, but you know the deadline for x is end of jan and its looking iffy now?
Client: Ah. We still need to meet that deadline, so can you make sure you put in the hours after the new year?
Me: Hmmmm
Nice one. To prove a point, I didnt work any extra hours but we still made the deadline...
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Originally posted by TheFaQQer View PostYou keep telling yourself that, while you're working overnight, eh?
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Originally posted by bobspud View PostI'm catching this up late as I was on an ipad and not willing to type like a maniac on it.
So in essence why is it OK for Cap Gemini or Delloite to bill for wasted time but my company is hobbled at the knees from doing so? Despite engaging in the same information sales activity? interestingly I have also seen uper contracts that state they are paid the full 60 days regardless of time off. so how does that help?
This is an interesting article. Although I can't decide if we are screwed or saved from it...
Is Mutuality of Obligation Extinct? - Contractor Weekly
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Originally posted by malvolio View PostFascinating. 14 years of IR35 case law and precedent and we still have this total lack of understanding of Mutuality. The "bill-and-be-damned" crowd probably should be, but the test is an irreducible minimum of mutuality of obligation. Being paid for not working is not the minimum, regardless of why you are not working.
Seriously, if you don't understand the logic, stop arguing. My ribs won't take much more.
So in essence why is it OK for Cap Gemini or Delloite to bill for wasted time but my company is hobbled at the knees from doing so? Despite engaging in the same information sales activity? interestingly I have also seen uper contracts that state they are paid the full 60 days regardless of time off. so how does that help?
This is an interesting article. Although I can't decide if we are screwed or saved from it...
Is Mutuality of Obligation Extinct? - Contractor Weekly
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Originally posted by TheFaQQer View PostYou keep telling yourself that, while you're working overnight, eh?
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Originally posted by Old Greg View Post3) You always ensure the inclusion of a late cancellation charge clause in your contracts.
About the only time client and I disagreed was one xmas.
Client: do you plan to work between xmas and new year?
Me: yes, as you know, we're mega busy.
Client: Actually we need to save money so please take the time off.
Me: OK up to you, but you know the deadline for x is end of jan and its looking iffy now?
Client: Ah. We still need to meet that deadline, so can you make sure you put in the hours after the new year?
Me: Hmmmm
Nice one. To prove a point, I didnt work any extra hours but we still made the deadline...
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Originally posted by northernladuk View PostThe relationship between a supplier and client has differences on either side due to the different powers they wield, position, financial, skill etc so what one party can do does not always reflect for the other party. This is business. Over many months of unprofessionally complaining about clients you have proved you have completely and utterly missed this point. You are a contractor in business, not a moaning permie. All three of your examples should show you that there is a difference and that has to be understood and dealt with, not blindly expected and moaned about.
Why do you bother contracting?
2) I won't let clients walk all over me regardless of the 'power' they think they have.
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Originally posted by psychocandy View PostGot to be fair I'm with billybiro on this. Lots of us seem to let the clients have it all their own way.
Think of the following and whether it works both ways.
1. Client says don't come in tomorrow. Contractor expected to suck it up and not bill.
Contractor says won't be in tomorrow, playing golf. Client goes nuts because there was important work on.
2. Client says budget run out. Terminating contract early with one weeks notice. Contractor has to suck it up.
Contractor does this and agent/client go nuts and contractors gets accused of being unprofessional.
3. Client says everyone is taking a 20% cut like it or lump it. Contractor sucks it up or walks.
Contractor walks in mid contract and wants a 20% rate increase. Client goes nuts about contractor blackmailing them or holding them to ransom.
Not quite fair, is it?
Why do you bother contracting?Last edited by northernladuk; 25 July 2013, 16:22.
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