Reply to: Should I bill for days I was told not to attend?

[Old Greg]

Or Im so good? :-)

No, that's not it.

[Wanderer]

Fascinating. 14 years of IR35 case law and precedent and we still have this total lack of understanding of Mutuality. The "bill-and-be-damned" crowd probably should be, but the test is an irreducible minimum of mutuality of obligation. Being paid for not working is not the minimum, regardless of why you are not working.

Just wondering how many of these cases were won or lost on the MOO argument. My impression is that HMRC seem to be downplaying MOO these days, indeed there is no mention of MOO at all in the HMRC's business entity tests....

[psychocandy]

I think the only point proved here was that your planning is a bit lacking if you managed it on time with no extra effort and having the time off

Or Im so good? :-)

[northernladuk]

Maybe the big firms have a late cancellation charge clause in their contracts.

...and...Their contacts will be bullet proof for a start, they are global big shots, not a guy using a standard contract. They also tend to work with SoW's rather than billing per day and take client downtime in to account. The also initially tender for the work at a loss and then make their money picking up work while they are plugged in.

Completely different model to a single bum on seat fighting IR35 with a standard contract they had no input in to.

[northernladuk]

Sounds like a good idea of course. Never really had a problem with client doing this to me though.

About the only time client and I disagreed was one xmas.

Client: do you plan to work between xmas and new year?
Me: yes, as you know, we're mega busy.
Client: Actually we need to save money so please take the time off.
Me: OK up to you, but you know the deadline for x is end of jan and its looking iffy now?
Client: Ah. We still need to meet that deadline, so can you make sure you put in the hours after the new year?
Me: Hmmmm

Nice one. To prove a point, I didnt work any extra hours but we still made the deadline...

I think the only point proved here was that your planning is a bit lacking if you managed it on time with no extra effort and having the time off

[No2politics]

You keep telling yourself that, while you're working overnight, eh?

Haha. I love this forum

[Old Greg]

I'm catching this up late as I was on an ipad and not willing to type like a maniac on it.

So in essence why is it OK for Cap Gemini or Delloite to bill for wasted time but my company is hobbled at the knees from doing so? Despite engaging in the same information sales activity? interestingly I have also seen uper contracts that state they are paid the full 60 days regardless of time off. so how does that help?

This is an interesting article. Although I can't decide if we are screwed or saved from it...

Is Mutuality of Obligation Extinct? - Contractor Weekly

Maybe the big firms have a late cancellation charge clause in their contracts.

[bobspud]

Fascinating. 14 years of IR35 case law and precedent and we still have this total lack of understanding of Mutuality. The "bill-and-be-damned" crowd probably should be, but the test is an irreducible minimum of mutuality of obligation. Being paid for not working is not the minimum, regardless of why you are not working.

Seriously, if you don't understand the logic, stop arguing. My ribs won't take much more.

I'm catching this up late as I was on an ipad and not willing to type like a maniac on it.

So in essence why is it OK for Cap Gemini or Delloite to bill for wasted time but my company is hobbled at the knees from doing so? Despite engaging in the same information sales activity? interestingly I have also seen uper contracts that state they are paid the full 60 days regardless of time off. so how does that help?

This is an interesting article. Although I can't decide if we are screwed or saved from it...

Is Mutuality of Obligation Extinct? - Contractor Weekly

[psychocandy]

You keep telling yourself that, while you're working overnight, eh?

For an additional premium otherwise I would not have agreed to do so.

[psychocandy]

3) You always ensure the inclusion of a late cancellation charge clause in your contracts.

Sounds like a good idea of course. Never really had a problem with client doing this to me though.

About the only time client and I disagreed was one xmas.

Client: do you plan to work between xmas and new year?
Me: yes, as you know, we're mega busy.
Client: Actually we need to save money so please take the time off.
Me: OK up to you, but you know the deadline for x is end of jan and its looking iffy now?
Client: Ah. We still need to meet that deadline, so can you make sure you put in the hours after the new year?
Me: Hmmmm

Nice one. To prove a point, I didnt work any extra hours but we still made the deadline...

[TheFaQQer]

2) I won't let clients walk all over me regardless of the 'power' they think they have.

You keep telling yourself that, while you're working overnight, eh?

[Old Greg]

1) I like moaning.
2) I won't let clients walk all over me regardless of the 'power' they think they have.

3) You always ensure the inclusion of a late cancellation charge clause in your contracts.

[psychocandy]

The relationship between a supplier and client has differences on either side due to the different powers they wield, position, financial, skill etc so what one party can do does not always reflect for the other party. This is business. Over many months of unprofessionally complaining about clients you have proved you have completely and utterly missed this point. You are a contractor in business, not a moaning permie. All three of your examples should show you that there is a difference and that has to be understood and dealt with, not blindly expected and moaned about.

Why do you bother contracting?

1) I like moaning.
2) I won't let clients walk all over me regardless of the 'power' they think they have.

[northernladuk]

Got to be fair I'm with billybiro on this. Lots of us seem to let the clients have it all their own way.
Think of the following and whether it works both ways.

1. Client says don't come in tomorrow. Contractor expected to suck it up and not bill.
Contractor says won't be in tomorrow, playing golf. Client goes nuts because there was important work on.

2. Client says budget run out. Terminating contract early with one weeks notice. Contractor has to suck it up.
Contractor does this and agent/client go nuts and contractors gets accused of being unprofessional.

3. Client says everyone is taking a 20% cut like it or lump it. Contractor sucks it up or walks.
Contractor walks in mid contract and wants a 20% rate increase. Client goes nuts about contractor blackmailing them or holding them to ransom.

Not quite fair, is it?

The relationship between a supplier and client has differences on either side due to the different powers they wield, position, financial, skill etc so what one party can do does not always reflect for the other party. This is business. Over many months of unprofessionally complaining about clients you have proved you have completely and utterly missed this point. You are a contractor in business, not a moaning permie. All three of your examples should show you that there is a difference and that has to be understood and dealt with, not blindly expected and moaned about.

Why do you bother contracting?

[TheFaQQer]

Or even negotiate to include them in the contract if you're that concerned about these things.

Possibly, when negotiating a contract, include them.