Reply to: Contract reviews etc before starting

[psychocandy]

LOL I thought that but not necessarily. Depends on the content. The clients may have ethical, regulator and legal requirements that have to be understood by anyone working on site. You would expect an induction before you step foot on a nuclear site. Same for a pharma and maybe an ethics one for certain areas in banking or something.

If it is to get you to sign up for the gym and covers all permie aspects as well I would be a little worried but if the client insists you do it before attending site it could easily be argued it is for all, not just perms. Just don't sign up for the gym, the employee club etc while you are on it.

Contract is with outsourcing company who are working on client site so I guess its more of a 'how we do things' thing.

Contract is only for 7.5 weeks so its not going to be very permie like....

[psychocandy]

Got contract reviewed by QDOS today. Cracking job in just over 3 hours.

Can't fault them. Cheers QDOS.

[mudskipper]

Must admit, my contract was only 8 weeks, so I read it carefully but didn't bother with a review - the client really did need someone to start the next day as it was the previous contractor's last day so the only opportunity for a handover. However, having now been there nearly two years (yes, I've stopped claiming expenses!) I wish I had been more diligent.

[northernladuk]

The written contract is the first thing that will be scrutinised in an enquiry. If it's littered with restrictive/negative clauses it will naturally make life difficult, even if your working practices are good.

Obviously the actual working practices are vital. Some things will be impossible to confirm until you've started the contract, although your general business practices (insurance, stationery etc.) will add weight to your argument and are not specific to the individual role.

We're always happy to review your working practices independently of the written contract, i.e. we can review your contract before you start and then your working practices a few weeks down the line so you get an overall view. This applies to both the full review and the 'free' assessments; just ask the consultant you are dealing with.

Biggest problem for IR35 in this case sits between the keyboard and chair and you can't review that

[northernladuk]

Induction? Aren't they for Permies?

LOL I thought that but not necessarily. Depends on the content. The clients may have ethical, regulator and legal requirements that have to be understood by anyone working on site. You would expect an induction before you step foot on a nuclear site. Same for a pharma and maybe an ethics one for certain areas in banking or something.

If it is to get you to sign up for the gym and covers all permie aspects as well I would be a little worried but if the client insists you do it before attending site it could easily be argued it is for all, not just perms. Just don't sign up for the gym, the employee club etc while you are on it.

[The Spartan]

Well got the gig at 5-20pm tonight. Client/agency wanted me to start tomorrow 9am. Umm, nope.

Had all sorts from agency. Client will pick someone else etc, they want flexibility. This is from a client who fannyed about for 2 weeks then decided to phone me yesterday and ask me to go for interview today.

I did want to start Thursday to make sure it was all reviewed (and I wanted the extra day off) but it looks like client/agency will be a bit too upset if push this. To be fair, they've got a few people starting so I think they've got plans for induction sort of thing.

Induction? Aren't they for Permies?

[psychocandy]

Well got the gig at 5-20pm tonight. Client/agency wanted me to start tomorrow 9am. Umm, nope.

Had all sorts from agency. Client will pick someone else etc, they want flexibility. This is from a client who fannyed about for 2 weeks then decided to phone me yesterday and ask me to go for interview today.

I did want to start Thursday to make sure it was all reviewed (and I wanted the extra day off) but it looks like client/agency will be a bit too upset if push this. To be fair, they've got a few people starting so I think they've got plans for induction sort of thing.

[The Spartan]

I had a contract review before I started and then had the contract changed to more reflective of my working practices, sure it was hard work but well worth the effort. I try to ensure all contracts are reviewed before starting even though the contract is only the starting point I feel much better knowing what's in it than blindly signing my life away.

[Qdos Contractor]

The written contract is the first thing that will be scrutinised in an enquiry. If it's littered with restrictive/negative clauses it will naturally make life difficult, even if your working practices are good.

Obviously the actual working practices are vital. Some things will be impossible to confirm until you've started the contract, although your general business practices (insurance, stationery etc.) will add weight to your argument and are not specific to the individual role.

We're always happy to review your working practices independently of the written contract, i.e. we can review your contract before you start and then your working practices a few weeks down the line so you get an overall view. This applies to both the full review and the 'free' assessments; just ask the consultant you are dealing with.

[northernladuk]

No, I meant that IR35 is governed by the actual working practices rather than the paperwork.

The Qdos check looks at the wording of the contract and advises you on IR35 status based on that. They may also include a check of the actual working practices, but I don't see how they can do that until you have already started. They do not check for bad clauses which you might want to be aware of, eg. poor payment terms etc.

So, since IR35 is determined by working practices, which you can't know until you start work, is there any point in having the contract reviewed for IR35?

I always wondered about the working practices before starting lol. I was happy to have mine contractually checked as I felt I knew enough to deal with working practices. I think it is a worthwhile exercise for the money. If there is no sub clause or clear D&C in the contract HMRC will pick on that even if it is allowed on site. If it isn't allowed in the contract there would be a strong indication it won't be allowed in practice so a review is good check to start. If it misses by a mile at contract review then you are fighting an uphill battle from the off and need to keep your wits about you.

[kevpuk]

So, since IR35 is determined by working practices, which you can't know until you start work, is there any point in having the contract reviewed for IR35?

At least it shows diligence - pretty sure it would go some way to establishing both acting as a Business, from a risk awareness perspective, as well as being seen to adopt a professional approach. Also, will support decison as to what accounting approach to take.....
As you say, working practice(s) will not be apparent until gig commences, but at least the contract can serve as an indication.

[TheFaQQer]

You mean 'from a contract perspective'? I believe the paid QDOS option does look in to working practices. Only the free ones are a simple contract clause check. They will look at associated documentation as well but from what I remember they didn't ask anything about working practices last time I used one of my free checks.

No, I meant that IR35 is governed by the actual working practices rather than the paperwork.

The Qdos check looks at the wording of the contract and advises you on IR35 status based on that. They may also include a check of the actual working practices, but I don't see how they can do that until you have already started. They do not check for bad clauses which you might want to be aware of, eg. poor payment terms etc.

So, since IR35 is determined by working practices, which you can't know until you start work, is there any point in having the contract reviewed for IR35?

[Old Greg]

Wrong attitude to have.

Some contracts are initiall for a short period and then are extended to be longer or the client wants to use you again a few months down the line.

Maybe you're right. My working practices are so far outside IR35 that I don't tend to worry about contract reviews.

[northernladuk]

If it's two months with no prospect of an extension, then I'd read the contract carefully, maybe ask my accountant to have a quick look, and then probably risk it anyway.

If there's a chance of extension, then speak to Qdos and see if you can pay more to get it done quickly if you really want it done that quickly.

Generally, though, I'd remember that for IR35, it's the reality rather than the written word which takes precedence, and the Qdos check is only looking from an IR35 perspective.

You mean 'from a contract perspective'? I believe the paid QDOS option does look in to working practices. Only the free ones are a simple contract clause check. They will look at associated documentation as well but from what I remember they didn't ask anything about working practices last time I used one of my free checks.

[TheFaQQer]

Same old same old. Client wants someone to start like NOW. Agent obviously wants they're money coming in.

2 month contract. How far would you push it in delaying start waiting for contract review (BTW - how long do QDOS take these days?)?

If it's two months with no prospect of an extension, then I'd read the contract carefully, maybe ask my accountant to have a quick look, and then probably risk it anyway.

If there's a chance of extension, then speak to Qdos and see if you can pay more to get it done quickly if you really want it done that quickly.

Generally, though, I'd remember that for IR35, it's the reality rather than the written word which takes precedence, and the Qdos check is only looking from an IR35 perspective.