Reply to: Newbie and IR35 (duck and cover)

[northernladuk]

What's the missing word? yourself?

Edit: I'm a bit slow - the smiley was the end of the sentence. A case where a simple fullstop would have avoided confusion. ( Maybe 'yourself' would fit better though. )

I thought you had cut back on the booze?

[mudskipper]

Either that or just take the names of all the pissed of permies that see you swanning in and out as you feel

What's the missing word? yourself?

Edit: I'm a bit slow - the smiley was the end of the sentence. A case where a simple fullstop would have avoided confusion. ( Maybe 'yourself' would fit better though. )

[northernladuk]

I also recommend keeping a track of the hours / days you work. Ovbiously if you do 9-5 then that's that but as I start anytime between 4 am - 7pm showing varied hours is another good pointer as all the permies are on fixed contracts so have to clock in/out at set time, also allows me to demonstrate a good lack of D&C.

Either that or just take the names of all the pissed of permies that see you swanning in and out as you feel

[Sockpuppet]

I also recommend keeping a track of the hours / days you work. Ovbiously if you do 9-5 then that's that but as I start anytime between 4 am - 7pm showing varied hours is another good pointer as all the permies are on fixed contracts so have to clock in/out at set time, also allows me to demonstrate a good lack of D&C.

[northernladuk]

Thanks NLUK

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to northernladuk again.

No problems. Remember however that many of these are very minor pointers. Could tip it in your favour should it be a close run thing but none are get out cards. As it takes so little time and effort to do and it is in billing time it seems a shame not to get some of it at least

Don't forget to get a confirmation of arrangements letter if possible as well.

[Daventry]

It depends on whether HMRC can show you are just doing it for IR35 argument reasons. I am not sure there is really IR35 proof as it depends on the discression of a judge.

If you have a friendly client who allows you to send a sub in for an afternoon and he just hangs around not doing much but has ticked the box for a sub going in then you will be okay unless they probe into things. If they probe into things and can show it was a trick you are in trouble.

Same with the laptop. If you just use it because you want to be outside IR35 and they can show that then you are in trouble. There was a discussion a while ago about renting an office that you do not use so you can claim it is a separate business location, the consessus seemed to be to not bother as HMRC will probably see through it and if they do they will hammer you.

It can be difficult to distinguish yourself IMHO. Here I do look similar to other employees even though my contract looks good under I have never been offered off subject work, have always had things to do and have never needed a substitute - hence I have not needed to invoke my IR35 killer clauses.

I supply some of my own tools to use but there is not a rule stopping the perms doing that if they can be bothered to.

I just ensure I toe the line of my (reviewed and approved) contract and have various insurance policies in place in case they are needed.

Same situation here. I should follow NLUK's advice and log those emails about activities only applicable to permies, take a photo of my badge, etc. Maybe a screenshot of my record in the firm directory which states I'm not an employee.

What insurance do you have? QDOS? PCG? Both?

[The Spartan]

Thanks NLUK

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to northernladuk again.

[northernladuk]

When it comes to logging stuff I'm a complete newbie, what do you regularly keep logs of?

Copy your badge if it is a contractor one and different to your permie one.
Keep a few mails where you are advising the client you will be unavailable certain days. (Do not use the term holiday, do not word it such that it is a request and do not save it if he responds 'approved' or anything similar)
Keep mails that advice dates you are not required to work i.e. over xmas. Make sure it is tailored to you and not the mass mail to all everyone. Try to get him to specifically mention that you will not be required due to downtime etc
Keep any mail discussions that involve you advising the client you will be supplying your own phone etc
Anything that has you and your company name on such as email address/ Maybe covered if your email is The.Spartan(Your Ltd)@client.com and you have saved the above.
Keep any mails that exclude you from anything that the permies go to, social events, xmas do's, financial meetings. Try to get your client to mail you specifically to say 'As a contractor you will not be attending <event> as it is aimed at permie's.
Same as above for anything you have been specifically refused access due to your contractor status.
If the permies get generic client co info and circulars that you are not on the distribution list try get a copy of one of those.
Any mails requesting you do not park in the normal car park as your Lambo/Bently/Aston Martin/Porsche/Camper Van is causing the permies some distress. (Actually happened to a friend of mine!!)

Anything else you spot that is specific to you that a permie would not normally get.

[The Spartan]

When it comes to logging stuff I'm a complete newbie, what do you regularly keep logs of?

[kevpuk]

<snip>I refused to start until the contract was considered acceptable by B&C, which meant I started on Wednesday instead of Monday.<snip>

Yikes - 2 day delay, sure lucky they didn't give up on you......

[cojak]

For my current contract I was pretty much hounded to start ASAP.

I refused to start until the contract was considered acceptable by B&C, which meant I started on Wednesday instead of Monday.

[MyUserName]

It depends on whether HMRC can show you are just doing it for IR35 argument reasons. I am not sure there is really IR35 proof as it depends on the discression of a judge.

If you have a friendly client who allows you to send a sub in for an afternoon and he just hangs around not doing much but has ticked the box for a sub going in then you will be okay unless they probe into things. If they probe into things and can show it was a trick you are in trouble.

Same with the laptop. If you just use it because you want to be outside IR35 and they can show that then you are in trouble. There was a discussion a while ago about renting an office that you do not use so you can claim it is a separate business location, the consessus seemed to be to not bother as HMRC will probably see through it and if they do they will hammer you.

It can be difficult to distinguish yourself IMHO. Here I do look similar to other employees even though my contract looks good under I have never been offered off subject work, have always had things to do and have never needed a substitute - hence I have not needed to invoke my IR35 killer clauses.

I supply some of my own tools to use but there is not a rule stopping the perms doing that if they can be bothered to.

I just ensure I toe the line of my (reviewed and approved) contract and have various insurance policies in place in case they are needed.

[Daventry]

I have also been lucky and client agreed to make a couple of changes suggested by QDos.

The question is - how do you ensure your working practices are IR35-proof? Have you ever sent in a substitute? Do you bring your own laptop?

Regards.

[kevpuk]

Have to admit that my current Agent was very decent about getting a couple of small clauses amended in relation to a IR35 contract review. My accountants had said all was OK, but advised keeping a log....and QDOS came back with a couple of points that might fall foul - Agency agreed immediately to amend contract, and revised version was sent out, signed and returned.

[MyUserName]

MyUserName - that's about the size of it. The meat of the contract is fine, the working arrangements are perfect from ir35 POV, but they have put a couple of stupid phrases in the schedule of responsibilities that contradict the main contract.

It's surprising how little many folk know or care about IR35 - I knew I was onto a loser when my agency contact said "isn't ir35 just for when you've been in one place for two years". Oh dear.

Agencies could not care less about IR35, it does not effect them. Most of them would happily reassure you that it this role is outside etc even if they knew it was not, it is you they gets nailed not them.

When receiving pressure from an agent I always explain that my insurance is conditional on getting the contract reviewed and the review passing. Hence, much as I am just as frustrated as the agent and client about this, it would be illegal for me to not have the contract reviewed and, should it fail, illegal for me to not have it amended.

This is pretty much cobblers but they cannot argue with it.