Reply to: Client and Agent serve notice but don't pay me - where do I stand legally

[Mephisto]

Well it's both then surely.

How many times does the line 'smile and invoice' get trotted out on here for when times are quiet?

[TheFaQQer]

surely the time-sheet merely exists to show that you were available for the work during that time even if no work was forthcoming?

No.

Think of it as a "time period during which work was performed sheet", which gets abbreviated to "time sheet", which is somewhat more realistic than a "time I could have done some work but didn't sheet".

One of my early timesheets said on it "I confirm that the hours / days noted above have been worked by the consultant and that the work carried out has been completed to the satisfaction of my company." as standard, which covered everyone for whether there should be payment or not. Note the use of the word "work" in there - no reference to "time" or "time that the consultant could have been working but didn't".

[northernladuk]

Hmm.. It's true that usually no timesheet == no pay, but surely the time-sheet merely exists to show that you were available for the work during that time even if no work was forthcoming?

It is, after all, called a timesheet, not a worksheet, and exists to show the time that you have put in rather than the work/tasks, does it not?

So, I can make myself available at a client's premises from 8am to 5pm on one particular day. I expect a signed timesheet for that day indicating that I was there, ready waiting and willing to work, for 8 hours on that day. Now, if the client has me merely keeping a seat warm for those 8 hours, that's surely their problem and not mine and I should still be paid for those hours? (Similar to how a bricklayer would be paid for being on-site for some number of hours even if the bricks haven't arrived for him to lay).

I think you are overthinking this and trying to make a point that is failing badly. Forget theory and add some common sense. No one is going to sign a timesheet off booked against a code/project for 8 hours a day when no work was done.

[billybiro]

Every contract I have states that payment will only be made with a signed timesheet. It would be pretty stupid not to have that in and I believe is considered the defacto standard.... so no work, no time sheet, no pay... as we have already stated.

Hmm.. It's true that usually no timesheet == no pay, but surely the time-sheet merely exists to show that you were available for the work during that time even if no work was forthcoming?

It is, after all, called a timesheet, not a worksheet, and exists to show the time that you have put in rather than the work/tasks, does it not?

So, I can make myself available at a client's premises from 8am to 5pm on one particular day. I expect a signed timesheet for that day indicating that I was there, ready waiting and willing to work, for 8 hours on that day. Now, if the client has me merely keeping a seat warm for those 8 hours, that's surely their problem and not mine and I should still be paid for those hours? (Similar to how a bricklayer would be paid for being on-site for some number of hours even if the bricks haven't arrived for him to lay).

[SueEllen]

The contract stated that I could be sued unlimited damages if I walked out. I had a zero notice clause (definded as "can't serve notice") they had a 1 week notice clause. I work in IT, I'm not a frickin journeyman plumber/bricklayer. I've worked on large projects in the past with a four week notice clause on either side where the project got canned and everyone got paid four weeks money but were marched off site!

Invoice as normal, chase up when it's overdue and then get a solicitor to write the agent a letter threatening court action if the invoice isn't paid in x days.

Then start small claims court action yourself the agent will probably settle just before you go to a hearing.

You don't need a solicitor to start small claims action as it's a waste of money and is easy to do yourself online.

Regardless if you are right or wrong most agencies won't want their contract terms ruled on by a judge.

BTW I'm another contractor that was paid notice when a client ended a contract early due to unforeseen circumstances which were not the client's fault.

[twofront]

Wow - such a hotbed of ill feeling I wasn't quite ready for

Why do you all keep contradicting yourself on this matter!

One minute stating its a business and the next about no pay for no work by the individual.

It is based on the business CONTRACT - if the contract has a notice period then it should be paid - unless it states specifically that it is reliant on work being available, timesheets being signed blah blah blah and agreed - and equal to both parties.

There are many business contracts in construction that do end up paying contractors / workmen whilst they cant work as either the site / materials are not ready - what do you think they do send them home & dont pay them everytime there is a lapse in the project.

If the notice period excludes payment then the notice period is worthless as the contract can be ended at a moments notice just by saying we have no work, dont come back, but take 4 weeks unpaid notice - it makes absolutely no sense and is totally open to abuse. It would also be totally unfair.

The regulations are clear. Why are so many of you confused?

I'm glad someone's on my side - I think I under-estimated how many rude plumbers were on here!! I'm going to put this one down to experience and mae sure all my work contacts avoid both the agent and the client like the plague!

[twofront]

After 10 years I would have thought you would know the score, if you don't work you don't get paid. Also if someone told me to take unpaid leave I would have starting looking for something else straight away. You are not bound to any contract really, most contracts have a clause where they don't have to give you work and you don't have to accept work either.

The contract stated that I could be sued unlimited damages if I walked out. I had a zero notice clause (definded as "can't serve notice") they had a 1 week notice clause. I work in IT, I'm not a frickin journeyman plumber/bricklayer. I've worked on large projects in the past with a four week notice clause on either side where the project got canned and everyone got paid four weeks money but were marched off site!

[northernladuk]

Is that a Freudian slip, or do you know something we don't?

Oh christ, I hope she doesn't see that

[TheFaQQer]

And after the months of arguing as kittykat and now as Pogle that speaks volumes does it not?

Is that a Freudian slip, or do you know something we don't?

[malvolio]

...Yet

...At all...

[northernladuk]

...Yet

And after the months of arguing as kittykat and now as Podgy that speaks volumes does it not?

[Podgy]

You not think it is odd that not one person appears to agree with you?

...Yet

[northernladuk]

Ahh you see thats where we differ - to me it is clear - as notice without pay is meaningless and would be unfair in contract terms.

Notice period is just a period in which you know the contract is going to end. The contractual terms for the work during that period are no different.

You not think it is odd that not one person appears to agree with you?

If you want it to be fair then you negotiate that in to your contract.

[Podgy]

But what will be in on the timesheet? Zero hours, which = zero pay. Jesus....

The problem is, as I stated in another thread, we do not do enough diligence on our notice periods so to be honest this argument is all our own fault. The standard contracts mention notice periods but absolutely nothing about being paid them. They are worked as normal (or not if the case need be). That is the problem. If you want to stipulate notice period is paid regardless you MUST put that in so no argument. Same with the clause about getting binned if no work. The standard notice period is so badly written that it causes this type of debate. We see different things in it.

Saying that to me it's pretty clear. I get paid if I have done work and had a timesheet paid. In contract or in notice period. Simple. But if you think notice periods mean something different you must get it clear in your contract to remove ambiguity.

Ahh you see thats where we differ - to me it is clear - as notice without pay is meaningless and would be unfair in contract terms.

mmmm let me see;

Notice Period:

Agency: 4 weeks with no pay if no work, 4 weeks with pay if enough work (up to us really).
Ltd Co: 4 weeks (or we'll withold your payment/sue you).

The whole point of it is so that both parties can plan for the end of the contract & that its fair on both sides.

[Podgy]

So you're saying that you get paid according to the contract? Every one I've seen says "no timesheet, no work, no payment" or words to that effect.


I don't think many people here work in construction, or have a contract which says that they get paid for not working.


Yes, you're right.

Whoever told you life is fair?


I don't think many people are confused, to be honest. Most understand exactly what their contract says, and understand whether they are entitled to payment or not. If the contract says that you are entitled to payment, then you should be paid; if it doesn't, then you shouldn't.

We've been through this a number of times in your previous incarnations here - KittyCat, Tiddles etc. - before they were banned.

Most people believe that if you don't work, you don't get paid. You think differently, and claim to have taken an agency to court, and they backed down at the last minute giving you tens of thousands of pounds.

I don't for one second believe a word that you say.

The only thing not true is that it was'nt tens of thousands, sadly!