Reply to: Other contractors at client working with no contract

[psychocandy]

It's fairly normal to not have the paperwork sorted out and it's also fairly normal to get paid a bit late from time to time.

If you get worked up and walk off site everytime it happens you're just going to lose revenue and pee off the client.

We're not talking about paperwork. We're talking about confirmation. Paperwork can come later.....

I still think you're on dodgy territory continuing to go in when nothing has been sorted...

Bummer to lose revenue but you gotta to refuse to take it up the arse at some point....

[psychocandy]

Yes, but they are never going to do that because if they put it in an email they are effectively signing it off. If your local team manager were to do that he is likely to get in trouble with the senior folk for over committing on behalf of the company.

I wouldn't worry too much. Look at it this way. If you don't turn up for a few days while they sort it out you won't invoice anything.

Don't get me wrong - I 100% agree with your point in princple and I used to get worked up over late renewals. However, I realised it was winding me up and it was easier to change the way I thought about it rather than try and change the system.

I just see it as a risk that is part of contracting.

Yeh. It is a risk.

And just to clarify - its the agent who I wait for email from. After all, contract is with them. If they wish to email me on the basis of whoever they speak to at client thats they're risk.

[Platypus]

If you get worked up and walk off site everytime it happens you're just going to lose revenue and pee off the client.

WHS

[BlasterBates]

It's fairly normal to not have the paperwork sorted out and it's also fairly normal to get paid a bit late from time to time.

If you get worked up and walk off site everytime it happens you're just going to lose revenue and pee off the client.

[minstrel]

BTW - what do you think Currys would tell you if you walked in, said you were having admin problems with your credit card but that you'd sort it later, but you'd like to take the TV home now?

Would they be concerned about whether they were being confrontational when they told you ever so nicely that that wasn't going to happen?

Completely different situation.

Say I bought a TV from Currys and agreed to pay it off in monthly installments. If I have an admin problem with my bank account 6 months in and fail to make a payment, do you think they will send the bailiffs around next working day or give me a week or so to sort it out?

[minstrel]

Not my problem to be honest. I give them enough notice, I compromise by saying I just need confirmation by email rather than the full monty signed contract. Its not hard - that's my point.

Yes, but they are never going to do that because if they put it in an email they are effectively signing it off. If your local team manager were to do that he is likely to get in trouble with the senior folk for over committing on behalf of the company.

I wouldn't worry too much. Look at it this way. If you don't turn up for a few days while they sort it out you won't invoice anything.

Don't get me wrong - I 100% agree with your point in princple and I used to get worked up over late renewals. However, I realised it was winding me up and it was easier to change the way I thought about it rather than try and change the system.

I just see it as a risk that is part of contracting.

[psychocandy]

BTW - what do you think Currys would tell you if you walked in, said you were having admin problems with your credit card but that you'd sort it later, but you'd like to take the TV home now?

Would they be concerned about whether they were being confrontational when they told you ever so nicely that that wasn't going to happen?

[psychocandy]

Not my problem to be honest. I give them enough notice, I compromise by saying I just need confirmation by email rather than the full monty signed contract. Its not hard - that's my point.

If I didn't do it like this, you can guarantee they just wouldn't bother EVER because they just cant be arsed. And then, like I said, one day I'd send in an invoice for a months work only to be told it was never signed off and there's no budget for it etc. It will happen I can guarantee. Then it'll be one hell of a job getting my invoice paid with no contract in place.

I don't see that I'm being confrontational at all. I don't want to leave my personal stuff there if it all ends and have the hassle of getting it back.

To be honest, the local team manager is a decent guy. He recommends I stay, he worries about it etc but hes got no direct sway as to whether it gets signed off. He was fine about my actions and understood my thinking and had no problem with it.

[minstrel]

Personally, I don't think its wise to work without a contract. Not being funny but how hard is it for client to sort out?

I understand your frustration and agree it's always best to have a written contract extension in place. However, it's sometimes not as easy as you think for client to get extensions sorted. There is often a lengthly bureaucratic process that needs to be followed with lots of people involved in the authorisation chain.

Even if your direct manager sorts things out several weeks before renewal, the senior authorisers sometimes don't sign off because they like leaving things to the last minute.

I agree with other posters that there is an implied contract if you keep working. On some contracts the term isn't that clear cut. The PCG contract for example only says:

"Provision of the Services is expected to commence on x and to be completed by y."

What I tend to do in these situations is send an email on the last day to client/agent along the lines of:

Dear Client/Agent,

Following recent discussions, I understand that you would like to extend our contract but there may be a delay in organising the paperwork.

In view of our long standing relationship, I'm happy to continue providing services from Monday under the same terms and conditions to avoid any disruption to the project.

However, I would be grateful if you could please arrange the paperwork as soon as possible and certainly no later than one week from today.

If you do not wish me to provide services on Monday please let me know immediately. If I do not receive a response to this email it will be assumed that you want me to continue providing services.

States your position clearly and could be useful in court if they refuse to pay, but a bit less confrontational than clearing your desk.

[SueEllen]

But no, said contractor, was more interested in making themselves look good in front of client.....

When you leave make sure you keep in touch with some of the gossipy permies. It will be interesting to know what happens to the contractor when they are told to clear their desk.

[psychocandy]

To be honest, I've given up now. Person in question was new to contracting so I was glad to help out with some advice (not that Im that knowledgeable having been away for a number of years).

Since then they pretty much ignored everything I said.

The working for free at weekends really pissed me off. I told them that was a bad idea and it would allow client to take advantage (which they do).

But no, said contractor, was more interested in making themselves look good in front of client.....

Contractor also had a thing about phoning me for tech advice out of hours. Dont get me wrong Im not such a twat that if someone phones me I wont help but not all the time.
Now I dont answer the phone to them if its outside working hours.

[SueEllen]

IR35 mentioned = blank look

Time to do your duty and scare them.

But, of course, the client does think I'm being awkward now and that other contractor is flexible and helpful and doesn't cause them grief.

Time to do your duty and scare them.

There are old cases of contractors seeking employment rights i.e. unfair dismissal that you should be able to dig out. (In tribunal cases it's the cost of solicitors fees that cause most businesses problems.)

[psychocandy]

Personally, I don't think its wise to work without a contract. Not being funny but how hard is it for client to sort out?

In my case, I remind them 3 weeks before, I also contact the agent. Is it too much to ask to find some time in those 3 weeks to decided whether they want me to stay or not?

I don't hassle my client/agent much and happy to get on with the work. All I ask though is that they sort this out - not hard.

If I let it go a few days this time, it'll be a few weeks next time then never. Then, all of sudden, I'll work for a month and find the invoice is refused because there's no budget. No thank you.

Unfortunately, client has a bad past record of doing this and pissing about with renewals. Several contractors have left because of this and left them in the tulipe every time. But they don't learn.

Apparently, a while ago, before my time, one guy was due to do some major work at clients customer site. Contract wasn't sorted so he just didn't turn up one monday and no-one knew where he was. He'd tried and tried to get it sorted the week before but someone else had offered him a contract on the last day so he took it. Caused no end of hassle because he'd spent months sorting this work out and, there was no handover or anything (even if there was someone else to do it).

Defies believe that client doesnt learn from this.....

[psychocandy]

FTFY.... and as I mentioned in another thread.. this type of 'contractor' is creating the damage and inviting HMRC to crawl over us. Have you asked him if he has IR35 insurance and see the blank look on his face?

There are two sides to every story though. If he has had written confirmation of his extension from the right people it should do until the paperwork is sorted. It isn't the best but I don't think you need to pack your stuff up with that type of agreement.

He could of course have nothing and just turned up which isn't unheard of.

IR35 mentioned = blank look

This person even kicked up a fuss a while ago because they didn't have a company mobile phone and thought it was unfair because the permies had one!

Apparently, during the summer the contractor didn't want to bother the manager in question because he was going on holidays (why aren't you hassling the agency anyway!!!!!). No written confirmation, no email, no nothing.

To be honest, I've given up getting all the paperwork done in advance now. It just doesn't happen. But I've told the agency I need a soft copy of the extension agreement sent to me, or, at the very least, an email from them confirming extension.

That Friday in question, I had zero response from client, and, from agent, I cant get hold of the client. In the end, it finally sunk in that they needed to get something sorted.

But, of course, the client does think I'm being awkward now and that other contractor is flexible and helpful and doesn't cause them grief. Pisses me off that I'm the one doing things properly yet the other contractor looks good.

(Although they are ****** useless as well mind!)

[BlasterBates]

Verbal/Implied contracts are legally valid, which is what this is. If you know the client then absolutely no problem in continuing to work, and I don't see it has any IR35 implications, and the paperwork will follow on.

Why throw away revenue?

Obviously an impied contract is not good for the entire duration of the contract, but this isn't what we're discussing.