Reply to: Software developer contracts

[escapeUK]

A lot of people have trouble believing this unless they have experienced WFH for long periods of time.... I have done it before in order to complete a particular piece of work and ain't as much fun as it sounds...

Personally I find it too much fun, in that I spend too much time doing my own thing and not enough working. So I tend to go into the clients to focus my mind on the job.

[d000hg]

I disagree, about having to be in the ClientCo office 9-5.

With a remote connection and a telephone you can perform 95% of the work from home as a Software Dev.

Depends partly on the work - you might need some fancy tools - and more so on the mentality of the client. My current client is pretty old-school so I was pretty surprised when I told them that as I had no car, I couldn't take the work they were offering unless it was 90% WFH, they agreed and got me a VPN/RDP setup.

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

I disagree, about having to be in the ClientCo office 9-5.

With a remote connection and a telephone you can perform 95% of the work from home as a Software Dev.

I tend to go into the office, not because I have to, but because I personally prefer it.

A lot of people have trouble believing this unless they have experienced WFH for long periods of time.... I have done it before in order to complete a particular piece of work and ain't as much fun as it sounds...

[Scrag Meister]

I disagree, about having to be in the ClientCo office 9-5.

With a remote connection and a telephone you can perform 95% of the work from home as a Software Dev.

I tend to go into the office, not because I have to, but because I personally prefer it.

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

Honestly I don't know and am sure Malvolio will come and tell you but if you do a search on the forums there has been a lot of discussions about the two. Look in the Welcome section. There is a sticky telling you how to use google to search particular parts of the forum. Use PCG+ term in the accounts section.
Possibly wasting money but I have both. So it costs me a couple of 100 quid extra a year. I can deal with that.



Substitution is a moot point and we have argued about this many times. A few people in the forums have managed to substitute but in many cases it is just a sham. The JLJ case ruled it was a sham and would never work but as long as it is your contract you have to assume it is ok. It is only a pointer as well. There is no one factor that puts you inside or out. There are many different aspects.

Differentiating yourself can be done in a whole host of ways, coming in different times and having flexibility over that, your pass is a dfferent colour, you cannot be shifted on to another job like a permie can, there is MoO so you are not given work after that assignment like a permie does, you are not registered on the training system, you do not have yearly reviews, you do not submit expenses (you invoice it), you try not to take the perks that permies have on site and so on.

Some gigs you can't get away from some of these, others you do. You can still argue you are a contractor even though you have to do some as required by policies on site, eg they don't issue different coloured passes or won't put your LTD name in email. These are all very minor points though.

Just be as diligent as you can be and you have a case.

All excellent points, I guess it comes down to one single thing - Do you believe you can be convincing in court? I for one believe there is big list of defences I could present in court:

1) Short-term nature of contracts (NL can comment on this one ;-) )
2) Project specific contracts
3) No employee rights (redundancy, sick-pay, force-time off etc)
4) Numerous clients (if you look at my accounts there are several clients whom I serve outside of my contract roles)
5) I pay for my own training

And I could go on....

Point is, how strong a case do you believe you have?

[SueEllen]

Yeah, I don't expect there'll be any of the benefits permies have, no bonus, no performance reviews. I'll stay out of the staff canteen too
I do have a work schedule, so that's something.
I'm still deciding between QDos and PCG+ too.

You can use the staff canteen openly unless external visitors and workers like builders can't use it.

Likewise you can go to the pub and company parties if invited.

The PCG is more than insurance.

Now carry on reading and digesting, and enjoy reading the threads which you can find by using search on the IR35 questions you have.

[captainham]

And just wait until you get onto the joyous topic of Business Entity tests:

<snip>


I was just looking at serviced offices near where I live, and I could in theory rent a tiny little office area in a shared office for the same cost each month as your average accountant, which in turn will push me into the 'Low Risk' category...but then I think, why should I waste 100 quid a month on an office that takes longer to get to than my current one (upstairs), is not as comfortable, etc, etc, just for some ridiculous point scoring on a stupid bloody test?

Grrrrr.....

[MoodyBlue]

Well, as mentioned elsewhere, welcome to the bonkers world of IR35. You're right in many ways, but you just need to try and make sure there is a clear difference between how you are treated and how the perms are treated. For instance, you don't want to be receiving performance reviews from the boss! But yeah, it's quite a tightrope and I'm certainly no expert, so it's probably best I say no more on it, as I'm a newbie to all of this too and finding my way along as I go.

For your last point, you want the schedule to at least state a broad outline of what it is you are to do. "Deliver x" and "Develop Y to do Z". This is some sort of small evidence that you are there for a specific task as opposed to doing whatever is thrown at you each day, plus it gives you the opportunity to turn work down if it is not related to why you were hired in the first place ("Sorry, I'm only here to do do-and-so, doing this other piece of work is not in my contact").

Without a schedule, in theory you are there to do whatever you are told to do, then you're basically just a permie being directed/controlled by the client and therefore inside IR35.

And if it wasn't discussed earlier (sorry, haven't read whole thread), you can buy insurance for IR35 investigations. Look at QDOS (TLC35), AbbeyTax (Survive35) and others I'm sure. Not guaranteed, as nothing is when talking about HMRC, but it's all a roll of the dice to one extent or another. Meh.

Yeah, I don't expect there'll be any of the benefits permies have, no bonus, no performance reviews. I'll stay out of the staff canteen too
I do have a work schedule, so that's something.
I'm still deciding between QDos and PCG+ too.

[MoodyBlue]

Read the IR35 articles and find out. Time to stand on your own feet.

I'm trying. I know I might appear to be asking a lot of questions but I am researching too. I just want to verify my understanding most of the time.

[d000hg]

A freelancer is often heavily controlled in the work they do, but tends to work with their own equipment from their own location at their own schedule... by Freelancer I mean hiring someone along the lines of RentaCoder. In fact I often work that way - specific tasks are assigned me from the bug-tracker.

As a freelancer I'm definitely not an employee!

[captainham]

Check my very first post. I can't see how any one in my line of work can be working in a team with other permies, with a manager and not be directed, simply ludicrous. I wouldn't think I would work on tasks that are not related to the project however.

Actually, the project isn't explicitly specified - should it be?

Well, as mentioned elsewhere, welcome to the bonkers world of IR35. You're right in many ways, but you just need to try and make sure there is a clear difference between how you are treated and how the perms are treated. For instance, you don't want to be receiving performance reviews from the boss! But yeah, it's quite a tightrope and I'm certainly no expert, so it's probably best I say no more on it, as I'm a newbie to all of this too and finding my way along as I go.

For your last point, you want the schedule to at least state a broad outline of what it is you are to do. "Deliver x" and "Develop Y to do Z". This is some sort of small evidence that you are there for a specific task as opposed to doing whatever is thrown at you each day, plus it gives you the opportunity to turn work down if it is not related to why you were hired in the first place ("Sorry, I'm only here to do do-and-so, doing this other piece of work is not in my contact").

Without a schedule, in theory you are there to do whatever you are told to do, then you're basically just a permie being directed/controlled by the client and therefore inside IR35.

And if it wasn't discussed earlier (sorry, haven't read whole thread), you can buy insurance for IR35 investigations. Look at QDOS (TLC35), AbbeyTax (Survive35) and others I'm sure. Not guaranteed, as nothing is when talking about HMRC, but it's all a roll of the dice to one extent or another. Meh.

[northernladuk]

Check my very first post. I can't see how any one in my line of work can be working in a team with other permies, with a manager and not be directed, simply ludicrous. I wouldn't think I would work on tasks that are not related to the project however.

Actually, the project isn't explicitly specified - should it be?

Read the IR35 articles and find out. Time to stand on your own feet.

[MoodyBlue]

And lastly, the key point: at the end of the day, what's written in the contract is pretty much useless when deciding if you are in/out of IR35.

You can have the best contract in the world (wording-wise), but if your actual working practices mean you are treated more like a regular employee (being directed/controlled by a manager, performance reviews, using subsidised canteen, being given tasks to complete that are not part of your contract, etc), and if HMRC find this out (by investigating you and subsequently interviewing the client), then they will ignore your contract and point to your working practices as proof of employment.

So by all means get your contract as IR35-friendly as possible (and indeed you should), but you need to understand it is not just words on paper that decide IR35 status, it's how you act/behave as a person in business for yourself.

Next time, I might try 1 post instead of 3 separate ones

Check my very first post. I can't see how any one in my line of work can be working in a team with other permies, with a manager and not be directed, simply ludicrous. I wouldn't think I would work on tasks that are not related to the project however.

Actually, the project isn't explicitly specified - should it be?

[captainham]

And lastly, the key point: at the end of the day, what's written in the contract is pretty much useless when deciding if you are in/out of IR35.

You can have the best contract in the world (wording-wise), but if your actual working practices mean you are treated more like a regular employee (being directed/controlled by a manager, performance reviews, using subsidised canteen, being given tasks to complete that are not part of your contract, etc), and if HMRC find this out (by investigating you and subsequently interviewing the client), then they will ignore your contract and point to your working practices as proof of employment.

So by all means get your contract as IR35-friendly as possible (and indeed you should), but you need to understand it is not just words on paper that decide IR35 status, it's how you act/behave as a person in business for yourself.


Next time, I might try 1 post instead of 3 separate ones

[MoodyBlue]

Have you seen the official one from HMRC? Pay attention to the quoted examples in particular, they can tell you a lot:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/ir35/guidance.pdf

Yep - downloaded the other night, read about half of it so far.

And page 5 of this one talks about the key aspects of IR35; subsequent pages talk about other points, which are all valid, but "The Big 3" are generally regarded as those on P5:

http://www.nixonwilliams.com/images/...35%20Guide.pdf

Thanks will read that too.

Soooo much to read!