Team leader + IR35

[northernladuk]

I've never really had an thought it would be an issue with training staff or mentoring them or planning their work - as in that case - it is me that is on control - not the client. No one is telling me how to do my job. The client is usually a manager of a project who doesn't have testing experience so they leave me to get on with planning a test schedule and carrying out the testing I just report back to them the defects that have been founf and overall quality and whether I think it it of sufficient quality to go live or not (which they usually do anyway).

That is a good way to put it! Explains it perfectly.

[IR35FanClub]

I've never really had an thought it would be an issue with training staff or mentoring them or planning their work - as in that case - it is me that is on control - not the client. No one is telling me how to do my job. The client is usually a manager of a project who doesn't have testing experience so they leave me to get on with planning a test schedule and carrying out the testing I just report back to them the defects that have been founf and overall quality and whether I think it it of sufficient quality to go live or not (which they usually do anyway).

What I do make sure of is that I don't go to monthly company briefings. Even if contractors are welcome to attend. I don't really care about what the company will be doing this/next year, as in theory I won't be there.

Team meetings are different. As a consultant I think I should earn some of my money by helping to improve the departments processes and team organsiation based on what I've seen working elsewhere. One of the advantages of being a contractor is moving around a lot - I've had 6 roles in the last 5 years so have seen a lot of different project types and feel I can add value based on experience.

[northernladuk]

Improved my understanding as well, thanks.

What if you have to direct staff for a set time - say 3 to 6 months - to coach them or bring them up to speed in new methodologies or techniques and then you move on, so you would not become part of the organisation.

You have a set of deliverables with the client and your role is to carry out those deliverables. If it is training staff, managing them or giving them a cuddle in a morning... it's your role and you are delivering it. D&C is not an issue here.

D&C only comes into it when the client directs you in the way you work, not the actual deliverables, i.e. use company expenses not invoice, give you extra tasks that are not in your deliverables, tells you when you can and can't take holidays (unless there is a valid reason like company wide shut downs) and so on.

It's a fine line, in some cases you must carry them out but it won't affect IR35 as there is a business reason, for example attend health and safety training if you are doing physical work, attend a IS security briefing if you are working with sensitive information. The client is obliged by law to make sure anyone is on site including you so these are mandatory and you will not fail IR35 by attending them. These apply to everyone, contractors, visitors, employees etc so you have to think why the client is asking you and not just pull the D&C line everytime.

Grey areas are things like booking travel through his designated travel company even though your LTD is paying and you are invoicing it back. The client might have insurance for travel booked by them, leveraging costs with them or a system that won't allow travelling unless booked that way. You could argue you had no choice, book it with them or leave the gig. I still think this is not an IR35 issue as you have no choice and there are business reasons the client must do this but it still one to be avoided if possible.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Improved my understanding as well, thanks.

What if you have to direct staff for a set time - say 3 to 6 months - to coach them or bring them up to speed in new methodologies or techniques and then you move on, so you would not become part of the organisation.

The time frame is, to a degree, irrelevant - it would be the level of integration that was important i.e. to what degree have you become part of the team, do you socialise with them, have you accepted the culture of the organisation, are you accepted by the team as being their line manager etc

[sunflower]

Improved my understanding as well, thanks.

What if you have to direct staff for a set time - say 3 to 6 months - to coach them or bring them up to speed in new methodologies or techniques and then you move on, so you would not become part of the organisation.

[andrewb]

D&C is how the client treats you and the approach to your role with regard to IR35, not the processes you have to carry out the role. The processes required to run the team are tools of the job. If the client asks you to do anything else beyond the scope of the work you are contracted you will have a D&C issue.

I think you are not understanding D&C/IR35 properly.

That's entirely possible! But I think you've just improved my understanding a little bit... so, thank you.

[Sockpuppet]

Directing client staff can be seen as a pointer inside IR35 though. Depends on if you are seen as becoming part and parcel of the organisation.

[sunflower]

A lot of companies are transitioning to agile methodologies these days, so the senior tech + team leader role is in many cases scrum master. The consultant ends up giving specific guidance to the client and planning the pieces of work to be produced in the sprints.

[northernladuk]

I occasionally see "senior tech + team leader" contracts being advertised where the client wants someone to both do the technical job (to a "senior" level) as well as build/run a team (who are doing a similar technical job, but perhaps not all to the same "senior" level).

Am I right in thinking that, in practice, it would be really hard to manage a team without being inside IR35? I would expect there to be some D&C for the line management aspects, since companies tend to have policies/procedures for how to run a team (eg doing appraisals etc) but only the usual (IR35-friendly) amount of D&C for the tech aspects of the role.

One the one hand the money for these things looks good, but on the other hand I think I'd just be collecting it on behalf of the tax man (so the money would have to be really good).

D&C is how the client treats you and the approach to your role with regard to IR35, not the processes you have to carry out the role. The processes required to run the team are tools of the job. If the client asks you to do anything else beyond the scope of the work you are contracted you will have a D&C issue.

I think you are not understanding D&C/IR35 properly.

[MyUserName]

It might be outside IR35 - imagine a team being formed for a specific project which has to be done in 6 months. The company has a pool of developers but cannot allocate a team lead/PM so they hire a contractor to come in run the project and then bugger off when everyone else goes back to their original duties.

[andrewb]

I occasionally see "senior tech + team leader" contracts being advertised where the client wants someone to both do the technical job (to a "senior" level) as well as build/run a team (who are doing a similar technical job, but perhaps not all to the same "senior" level).

Am I right in thinking that, in practice, it would be really hard to manage a team without being inside IR35? I would expect there to be some D&C for the line management aspects, since companies tend to have policies/procedures for how to run a team (eg doing appraisals etc) but only the usual (IR35-friendly) amount of D&C for the tech aspects of the role.

One the one hand the money for these things looks good, but on the other hand I think I'd just be collecting it on behalf of the tax man (so the money would have to be really good).