Reply to: PCG article about War on public sector contractors

[Sausage Surprise]

And pay you half as much?

As for flexi time, I give myself flexi time.

Who said anything about permie pay? If they want to tax my contractor rate i expect something in return.

[Stan.goodvibes]

...The women are all minging in the NHS anyway

Oh that made me LOL

[bobspud]

This is going to get u-turned before its even out the door. My client has 5 years worth of change and NO budget to hire new FTEs they can't just walk out to the nearest body shop and rent a bob as capita are the only source into the site, as per the framework agreement they won. The senior staff have already stated that they have an increased risk to the projects because believe it or not, they are losing too much knowledge out the door due to permies getting better jobs and leaving. There is a contingent of 30 contractors most of whom, have done at least two years because it takes that long to get projects out of the door. It has been made clear to the client that should this be mentioned they will be short 30 suppliers straight away. They have yet again stated that they will have a waiver against this sorted no question about it. So while the treasury may think they will role this out, they are in for a shock. The fact is that I would take a 6 month gig happily because anywhere else the would be enough to design and deliver a project. but with government, the purchase cycle and tendering takes at least 6 mounths and our project is needing two maybe three cycles it's not my fault how long I end up there it's the clients...

Remind me why it should be me that gets shafted?

[Old Greg]

Thing is, I would happily pay full NI and PAYE if they give me 30 days leave, plus flexi time, plus sick, plus pension and duvet days

If they are going to treat contractors as employees then surely they'll have to give us employee rights?

And pay you half as much?

As for flexi time, I give myself flexi time.

[Sausage Surprise]

Thing is, I would happily pay full NI and PAYE if they give me 30 days leave, plus flexi time, plus sick, plus pension and duvet days

If they are going to treat contractors as employees then surely they'll have to give us employee rights?

[cojak]

To be honest I have found public sector contracting to be something of a closed shop (especially SC stuff) so anything that shakes it up is welcome so far as I am concerned.

And you think that is going to change??

[BolshieBastard]

"Shaken up" as in "made completely untenable and handed off to the cheapo offshore suppliers supported by St Vince" you mean?

Not sure that represents progress, myself...

Agree. Dont see how anyone can claim this represents a 'shake up' at all tbh. If people think public sector jobs are a closed job now, wait til this stuff bites!

I've been wanting to get back into public sector contracts for a while but, they can go whistle dixie as far as Im concerned now. £220 a day then become permie!? Eff off!

[malvolio]

To be honest I have found public sector contracting to be something of a closed shop (especially SC stuff) so anything that shakes it up is welcome so far as I am concerned.

"Shaken up" as in "made completely untenable and handed off to the cheapo offshore suppliers supported by St Vince" you mean?

Not sure that represents progress, myself...

[SussexSeagull]

To be honest I have found public sector contracting to be something of a closed shop (especially SC stuff) so anything that shakes it up is welcome so far as I am concerned.

[centurian]

WBBS

Public sector middle/senior management bods in their 50s are those that have most to fear from being flagged up on the bad-boy radar. The younger folks can still switch to private sector if they lose the battle, but those on their 50s have probably worked in the public sector for so long, they don't know how to do anything else - and probably couldn't earn the same salary anyway.

Their public sector final salary pension means they are heavily dependent on maintaining the maximum salary level right up to the day of retirement. Even being sidelined for their last 5 years and having their pay frozen - that puts a fair dent in their planned retirement income.

[BolshieBastard]

If they are in a department which relies heavily on contractors to ensure their projects are actually delivered, I suspect some will push back particularly if their in their 50s and know they have gone as far as they can get.

Having worked permie in the civil service for 22 years, I'd be exceptionally surprised if anyone did this. They really dont give a ****. In any event, their annual appraisal marking has a significant impact on how big a pay rise they get.

With civil service pay severely cut, any extra gained via a better than good appraisal report is eagerly looked forward to.

The very people you mention as the ones to push back wont exist because they'll want as much money for themselves.

People in the civil service arent interested in 'pushing back' as you put it. They are about protecting their pension and getting a bigger payrise than the next guy.

[SueEllen]

Public sector is highly political and career progression has become severely limited with the cuts, so many FD's won't want black marks against them.

If they are in a department which relies heavily on contractors to ensure their projects are actually delivered, I suspect some will push back particularly if their in their 50s and know they have gone as far as they can get.

[centurian]

Does this help Civil servant 'contractor' staff to be paid as employees after six months in crackdown on tax avoidance | This is Money? My understanding is the same as yours Mal

And that would have been my interpretation too - until I read the Treasury document.

2.2... In addition, an individual engaged off payroll may pay the correct amount of tax. For example, they may be:
working through a personal service company and genuinely in business on their own account, drawing the profits as salary or operating IR35 (see chapter 3).

3.6 There is no requirement for a personal service company to operate PAYE on their income provided that income is not from a contract which would be one of employment if the worker was not engaged through a personal service company. Many people who work through
personal service companies will choose to withdraw at least part of their profits as salary and pay the income tax and NICs associated with doing so.

It says that it's fine for the contractor to pay divs - as long as the contract isn't caught by IR35. But I can't find anything in the document that says the department should evaluate engagements against IR35, or insist that the contractor treats the engagement as being inside IR35, even for those > 220pd/6mths


However I also agree with RasputinDude - don't be surprised if it distills down to being a clause such as "you agree this engagement falls completely inside IR35" etc. Even if the guidance doesn't require that - some departments might take a stricter line to avoid getting hauled over the coals. Public sector is highly political and career progression has become severely limited with the cuts, so many FD's won't want black marks against them.

[BolshieBastard]

.... they are disliked all the more.

Course they will be. But then Treasury will withold budgets to Departments that dont toe the line and make contractors work within IR35 or worse!

Look, I've no doubt your current practices are outside IR35 (or worse if Mal's scenario come to pass).

However, what you cannot deny is after the recent spate of stories of high profile people working for Gov Departments via PSC, the Government wants to stamp this out and make sure the 'fair share' of tax is paid (whatever that is) by anyone working on such a contract at 6 months and beyond.

They may have issued a consultation paper that says one thing now. That can be changed or simply re interpreted by Government, Treasury and Departments to mean something else. Personally, and it is just my opinion, I think people are being exceptionally naive depending on a first stage consultation document and, the premise that Departments spent a lot of time and effort in the past to give contractors watertight IR35 proof contracts, that that wont change and if you carry on as you are, you wont be affected.

I think you \ we will be affected. I think the government and Treasury will force Departments to rethink and change their approach to contracts, even if it means in the short term they'll shoot themselves in the foot.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Does this help Civil servant 'contractor' staff to be paid as employees after six months in crackdown on tax avoidance | This is Money? My understanding is the same as yours Mal