Reply to: contract renewal sent through but no signature

[Antman]

Thanks for all your views, I have already signed it and sent it back. I wouldn't pursue it with the agency if the end-client said no at the last minute, life's too short.

I guess I was prompted to post in the first place by the disconnect from what this agency says (they go on about integrity all the time) and what they do. I'm glad I posted because I've learnt a thing or two from this thread.

[Wanderer]

the agency sent through the contract which weren't signed from the agency. The agency asked me to sign both and return them then they sign and return one to me.

Just sign it and send it back but be prepared for them to "forget" to sign it and return it to you. It's up there on the list of stupid agency tricks I'm afraid.

I guess the agency thinks it may be in their favour if it comes to the crunch and they can try to use this as a trump card saying that they never signed the contract so it's not valid. Probably has no basis in law but they would no doubt use it to try and bluff and bluster their way out of a difficult situation should one ever arise.

My current agency sends me the paperwork already signed, I sign it and send it back. None of this stupid ping pong business. It's all done via email too, I can't be arsed with a 20 odd page print out that I'm just going to file away.

But hey, this sort of bulltulip comes with the territory doesn't it.

[Gentile]

But the individual may not know. So if you ask, he/she says no, but it happens you are being recorded what then. Admissible or not?

PS: In answer to your question, an individual wouldn't need to ask: businesses need to inform private individuals when they're recording a call they are party to. But, in a B2B call, the answer is no: lying about having made a recording wouldn't in itself make the contents inadmissible. It would however undermine the character and honesty of the person making the false statement on tape should they later need to produce the recording.

[Gentile]

But the individual may not know. So if you ask, he/she says no, but it happens you are being recorded what then. Admissible or not?

A company is under no obligation to say whether they're recording a call with another company or not, even if asked by the other business. They can just say they don't discuss their confidential call monitoring policies with third parties. However, it's advisable not to lie. If a business is cagey about their policy, it won't foster a good business relationship with the entity to whom they're speaking and with whom they're hoping to do business. And, if they later need to produce the recording, the last thing they'll want to hear on the call is one of their employees lying about having recorded the thing. Most agencies rely on other businesses not asking the question, and respecting their right to record the business transactions they are party to.

[ASB]

Ask the next agent you're speaking to if they're recording your call; you may be surprised at the answer you get.

But the individual may not know. So if you ask, he/she says no, but it happens you are being recorded what then. Admissible or not?

[Gentile]

I doubt very much agents record calls tbh. The storage capacity required for the millions of calls they make to clients, other agents and contractors wouldnt justify the cost for the odd occasion they'd need.

Once had a currency dealer say they'll take me to court when I told them the deal they did didnt have my authorisation. They said 'we'll prove it to you as we record all our calls.' Go ahead I said because I knew I didnt expressly or covertly authorise them to do the deal.

They phoned back later and said they would 'let me off' the charges (how very nice of them!) because someone had jumped the gun in buying the currency in the first place. Bellwhiffs, lucky I didnt sue them for defamation!

It may surprise you how ridiculously easy it is, and cheap when compared to being taken to Court by any party tempted to claim a business has agreed terms that it didn't. One of my past gigs was for a medium-sized call centre running advice lines for the NHS. Six months' worth of calls to 100+ 24 hour operators (including a surprising amount of prank calls from schoolboys that didn't know nearly as much as they thought they did about 1471 to the sexual health line for kicks during their lunch hour), fitted on single 3TB RAID array. And, the software that recorded the calls also dealt with recycling disc space come clear-out time. All you needed to do if you wanted to play a call back was know what number it came in from or to, roughly what date and time the call was, and it was a fairly simple task to pin it down. And, for smaller operations like individual Ltds and micro agencies, there are plenty of options available too. You can bet the big agencies are doing it. And the smaller ones will be if they're smart. Ask the next agent you're speaking to if they're recording your call; you may be surprised at the answer you get.

[BolshieBastard]

I doubt very much agents record calls tbh. The storage capacity required for the millions of calls they make to clients, other agents and contractors wouldnt justify the cost for the odd occasion they'd need.

Once had a currency dealer say they'll take me to court when I told them the deal they did didnt have my authorisation. They said 'we'll prove it to you as we record all our calls.' Go ahead I said because I knew I didnt expressly or covertly authorise them to do the deal.

They phoned back later and said they would 'let me off' the charges (how very nice of them!) because someone had jumped the gun in buying the currency in the first place. Bellwhiffs, lucky I didnt sue them for defamation!

[Hex]

Just sign then and send them back. I think you are reading far too much in to this.

Scan or photocopy one for your files before returning.

[Contreras]

They wont be bothered, because if they needed to prove your company's B2B relationship with theirs at a later stage, they'd need only use their recording of phonecall they had with you in which you agreed to sign and return the contract as evidence.

OMG! Really, do they do that?

And there was me thinking that Mr agent chappy didn't give a hoot about the contract just so long as his commission came rolling in each week.

Must take more care what I say next time... I NEED A JOB - YouTube

[Gentile]

Summary of the Law from OFCOM.

Oftel - faqs

Essentially, as long as you do not disclose the contents of the call to a third party you do not have to tell people you are recording the call.

You're still thinking in terms of the law as it applies to private individuals. When the communication occurs between businesses (which your Ltd is, which every agency is), the DPA and RIPA rules aren't applied in the same way as they are when an individual is involved. And, despite what some organisations have tried to claim, businesses are not "humans too", so the Human Rights Act doesn't apply to them either. In B2B communications, it's perfectly legal for one party to provide a copy of their recording to a third party (a Court, for example, in the case of any contractual dispute), provided it has made the recording for one of a set list of legitimate business purposes. One of those legitimate purposes is "to provide evidence of a business transaction". It mentions this fact in the link you've referenced.

Now that's a very interesting bit of information that I didn't know - it works both ways...

It most certainly does.

[DaveB]

Now that's a very interesting bit of information that I didn't know - it works both ways...

Summary of the Law from OFCOM.

Oftel - faqs

Essentially, as long as you do not disclose the contents of the call to a third party you do not have to tell people you are recording the call.

[Sockpuppet]

I don't think I've ever received a signed contract. Always a blank signature from the agency.

Then again it works both ways. As long as I start at the client the last terms and conditions that were in play are assumed to be the ones were working to. Never had a problem.

[cojak]

All perfectly legal for a B2B relationship: unlike when companies are dealing with private individuals, they don't even need to tell you they're recording the call for later reference.

Now that's a very interesting bit of information that I didn't know - it works both ways...

[Gentile]

On the other hand they might be fed up with chasing contractors who, having received a signed contract from the agent, fail to return a signed copy to the agent. This way there is an incentive for you to return it signed without them needing to chase it.

Having said that, I have failed to return a signed contract having received copies with the agent's signature. I did this twice with the same agent and never heard a peep from them. A signed timesheet is probably implicit acceptance of the contract, but my guess is the agent simply wasn't bothered.

They wont be bothered, because if they needed to prove your company's B2B relationship with theirs at a later stage, they'd need only use their recording of phonecall they had with you in which you agreed to sign and return the contract as evidence. That, in conjunction with the fact you later began work, would be more than sufficient to prove you'd agreed to their terms. All perfectly legal for a B2B relationship: unlike when companies are dealing with private individuals, they don't even need to tell you they're recording the call for later reference.

[Contreras]

On the other hand they might be fed up with chasing contractors who, having received a signed contract from the agent, fail to return a signed copy to the agent. This way there is an incentive for you to return it signed without them needing to chase it.

Having said that, I have failed to return a signed contract having received copies with the agent's signature. I did this twice with the same agent and never heard a peep from them. A signed timesheet is probably implicit acceptance of the contract, but my guess is the agent simply wasn't bothered.