Multiple Client Contracts

[Murder1]

I don't see being at a single client for multiple years as automatically falling foul of IR35- it may make you more susceptible to an investigation but I'm not sure how HMRC would know that info prior to an investigation anyway.

And just because you never exercise a MOO or Subs clause doesn't automatically put you within IR35 as far as I can tell, although exercising Subs does go a long way to putting you outside according to the new Business Entity tests.

[Sockpuppet]

At Lockheed Martin there was a contractor hired to complete a project that no one else there could do (there were no programmers). As long as he met his deadline he could pretty much do what he wanted, although he worked with a project manager who was an ex-programmer to make sure it was going the right way etc. This is the only contractor I can think of who was actually outside IR35.

This pretty much describes what I am doing. I install / train people to use a certain kind of automation. There are ~5 companies in the UK that would be able/need to/have the money to buy one of these so its likely most of my contracts will be with these companies.

[MyUserName]

To be honest I can think of very few contractors who are actually outside IR35 as I understand it.

When I worked at an investment bank in London. Every contractor was just used as an extra resource on the project. They had the same skills and work procedures as perms (although they recorded our time and had no notice periods, no appraisals, no holidays etc). No one had ever exercised MOO and refused to do something and no one had even sent a sub.

As far as I am aware that puts the entire contract team inside IR35 although I conceed I might be missing something.

At Lockheed Martin there was a contractor hired to complete a project that no one else there could do (there were no programmers). As long as he met his deadline he could pretty much do what he wanted, although he worked with a project manager who was an ex-programmer to make sure it was going the right way etc. This is the only contractor I can think of who was actually outside IR35.

[Mr.Whippy]

The new questions format that is being banded about at the moment looking at if we are a true business.

IR35 is the same as it always was, as the legislation itself has not changed in any way due to the "Business Entity Test".

[northernladuk]

IR35 version 2?

The new questions format that is being banded about at the moment looking at if we are a true business.

[Mr.Whippy]

I think the landscape has changed with IR35 version 2.

IR35 version 2?

[BolshieBastard]

I know a lot of people think they arent caught by IR35 but I think the landscape has changed with IR35 version 2.

I also think HMRC are devious bastards so all these things like forced time off and short breaks when working at the same client for a long time are things people should imho, avoid.

I know a couple of contractors, one who has worked at the same client for nearly 15 years (talk about disguised employee) but he thinks he is 'alright' and another who has worked at the same client for nearly 8 years with a couple of short breaks who also thinks he is 'alright.'

Personally, I wouldnt want to be in their shoes right now because if HMRC come calling.........

Myself, I've had one stint at the same client over 3 years. I wont do this again if the chance did appear.

[Normie]

I've been at my current end client for nearly 7 years now:

18 months via Agency A
Break of 8 weeks
4 1/2 years via Consultancy B
8 months via Agency C (plus just been extended til the end of the year)

My main pointers for being outside are:

- Each year I've had at least a 3 week enforced contractor stand down period over Christmas and New Year
- They don't keep track of my absences - I just let them know when I plan to take holidays
- I've done a couple of seperate fixed price bits of work for another client during the contracts
- Other minor stuff, like being listed as a Contractor on internal directory, says "Contractor" on my Id badge, etc

I really need to start documenting this stuff - time to put together a folder over the weekend I think.

[northernladuk]

I don't see any target whatsoever. Some businesses partner for decades and seen contractors working on systems through out the the lifecycle. I think we all know the older fella that has been contracting at the client for 8 years and is the only one that knows anything about a legacy system still running?

What I would do is just be very careful my house is in order and that the client is so used to me he sees me as a hidden permie now and expects me to take the next gig. That won't look good if you get investigated. It's maybe client mentality you want to be aware of you. He can't forget you are a contractor and slip in to bad habits. What you do about it I don't know but I do believe although long contracts themselves are an IR35 problem I think attitudes change in that time, both yours and the clients.

[Contreras]

Length of service isn't itself a case to argue you are an employee, but being with only one client means there is only one case to consider so less effort for HMRC to bring a case against you.

It's not something they would normally know about until they start an enquiry anyway - except that the mass of IR35 letters currently being sent out ask for copies of all contracts, with zero effort on HMRC's part.

Will be interesting to see if a pattern can be determined to see how they are selecting targets. My thoughts are that it will be a random fishing exercise, despite all the hoo har about being able to profile more accurately these days.

Ergo you might rate higher in their "risk assessment", truth is no-one knows.

[cojak]

And although I'm with the same corporate client, I'm contracted to a different division doing something completely different - a scenario pretty damned impossible for a permie to do.

But I've been there less than 2 years and don't expect to be there for a 3rd.

[FiveTimes]

I hope not - I've worked at current client 4 times over a period of 10years -

[Sockpuppet]

I know length doesn't really have much to do with IR35 but anyone else think I'm painting a big target on my back here?

June 09 - Dec 09 - Client A
Feb 10 - Dec 10 - Client A
Jan 11 - Aug 11 - Client A
Sept 11 - Aug 12 - Client B (Competitor of Client A)
Aug 12 - Who knows - Possible back to client A.

All distinct projects and I've never had a role that a perm equivalent did. I'm just wondering if I'm making it too easy for HMRC to argue I'm an employee here due to spending a lot of time at one Client.