Reply to: IR35 Control

[northernladuk]

To clarify I wasn't saying we were inside ir35 but that the perception could be it as the courts and tbh, people I know, always compare me to a plumber andsay I don't use my own stuff.

Yep I see what you are saying but using your own stuff is the very least of your problems.

I know my.contracts are outside but am never confident that ir35 can't be made to apply in these situations.

Exactly, hence the reason to know IR35 inside out, get your contract checked etc. It isn't impossible to mitigate the risk to virtually zero and sleep soundly.

Listening to other contractors in my office that haven't even heard of IR35 I would argue that a large majority of contractors have made themselves inside IR35 making it hard for us that try which is why it gets my goat so much. We have two I know of here that have asked to use the client expenses system as it is easier than doing it themselves... I am like WTF!?!?!?!

The fact you even know about IR35 and have though about it will put you in the top 10% of safe guys in my opinion.

im a boring windows infra guy on new technologies , btw.

I am a boring pen pusher quoting process all the time so think yourself lucky

[nomadd]

Nomadd agreed about getting asked to stay perm after. Chatting to some of my colleagues it appears to be pretty rare any of them get asked for perm so would be interested in what Nomadd's situation is when they ask.

Current IB I'm working for has offered the permie thing on each renewal (three of, so far.) In 23 years of contracting, I'd say the perm option is offered at least 40%-50% of the time.

I just politely decline, as the money is never enough to match what I earn as a contractor. Never been an issue, really. If somebody did make me a stunning permie offer - and I'd worked with them a few years as a contractor to be sure of them - then maybe I'd consider it. But at the moment, with the skillset I have, permie just seems like financial suicide.

[Scoobos]

To clarify I wasn't saying we were inside ir35 but that the perception could be it as the courts and tbh, people I know, always compare me to a plumber andsay I don't use my own stuff.

When I say that the client says "just one more thing" its renewal, I know about the 24 month being if you know , but I never do.

Everytime I renew I stress its one last time but I always take the easy option when it comes to be benched. given that im benched now after doing a similar thing now,its not always the right choice

I know my.contracts are outside but am never confident that ir35 can't be made to apply in these situations.

im a boring windows infra guy on new technologies , btw.

[Sockpuppet]

Utter bollox. An example of what I say in the paragraph above. I say utter bollox because it is so simplistic you cannot take that as anything.

Agreed. I'm working for a client installing an automated machine, it's big cost £25 million. I have to use their equipment as I the network is locked down (I also use my laptop for other work, use theirs for the stuff I have to).

I have to work from site (where else is this machine going to be) and I have to work in the hours of 7am-10pm as the site is operational from 10pm-7am.

Doesn't mean I'm inside IR35 though.

[northernladuk]

Ok thanks for clearing that up,

Helix is not the right company name .. I'll go through my emails at home and let you know by PM if you're interested in reading it. Maybe Mal knows who it is.

in answer to your questions : It "usually" runs like this for me - 3 month contract, with specific aim - my track record is righting disasters - so its usually a disaster or close to. I aim to get it done outright in 3 months.

I come in, for 3 months, anywhere in the uk (or world) at my companies expense, do a cracking job and then attempt to handover.

Client wants "just 1 more thing" or "can you have a look at this" - before I know it, I'm renewed, implementing multiple projects and have no one to handover to, so I'm in effect BAU for my previous projects.... Repeat until its 23 months and I say, thanks but no thanks - as my expenses are usually substantial and my work is almost 80% BAU, single site, 9-5 etc after this term. I'm also influenced by the fact that I'm not one for staying in 1 location, or at 1 customer - I get bored.

I don't see a problem here up until you say "just 1 more thing". This is a major alarm bell. This is client direction and control which you must avoid at all costs. This is what they say to permies. Easily mitigated though by signing a new contract complete with a detailed set of deliverables and sticking to it. Can even be made to help your IR35 by having your old contract terminated early to start the next one. Either that or word your first one very well to show that the deliverable is to fix multiple defined problems. Just doing work the client asks you in the same contract is very bad.

The BAU thing is also a horrible situation to be in if not documented. I can't think how you can be a hidden permie any more than being left to own an on going piece of work with not termination date.

In my experience my team leads, site contacts or whatever do believe they are directly managing me. They are not - this is clear in the interview, contract etc - but in a reference or a letter they will start by inferring that they DIRECTLY managed me and my workload - purely innocently. Usually I'm the expert, so no one but me, and perhaps 1 fellow contractor will even know what I'm doing or how I get it done - non the less I was managed.

Again I strongly believe being managed is not a problem. You can still be part of a team as a service providor and still be managed by the process and people within the scope of your deliverables. It is the control and direction you have to avoid.

Sounds very much like you need to be an IR35 expert to keep your arse out of a problem here, not be so flipant about it all...

On the 24th month rule you must stop claiming expenses as soon as you KNOW you are going to be there for 24 months, not up the last day before 24 months is up.

Nomadd agreed about getting asked to stay perm after. Chatting to some of my colleagues it appears to be pretty rare any of them get asked for perm so would be interested in what Nomadd's situation is when they ask.

[northernladuk]

Ok thanks for clearing that up,

Helix is not the right company name .. I'll go through my emails at home and let you know by PM if you're interested in reading it. Maybe Mal knows who it is.

in answer to your questions : It "usually" runs like this for me - 3 month contract, with specific aim - my track record is righting disasters - so its usually a disaster or close to. I aim to get it done outright in 3 months.

I come in, for 3 months, anywhere in the uk (or world) at my companies expense, do a cracking job and then attempt to handover.

Client wants "just 1 more thing" or "can you have a look at this" - before I know it, I'm renewed, implementing multiple projects and have no one to handover to, so I'm in effect BAU for my previous projects.... Repeat until its 23 months and I say, thanks but no thanks - as my expenses are usually substantial and my work is almost 80% BAU, single site, 9-5 etc after this term. I'm also influenced by the fact that I'm not one for staying in 1 location, or at 1 customer - I get bored.

I don't see a problem here up until you say "just 1 more thing". This is a major alarm bell. This is client direct and control which you must avoid at all costs. This is what they say to permies. Easily mitigated though by signing contract complete detailed set of deliverables and sticking to it. Can even be made to help your IR35 by having your old contract terminated early to start the next one. Either that or word your first one very well to show that the deliverable is to fix multiple defined problems. Just doing work the client asks you in the same contract is very bad.

The BAU thing is also a horrible situation to be in if not documented. I can't think how you can be a hidden permie any more than being left to own an on going piece of work with not termination date.

In my experience my team leads, site contacts or whatever do believe they are directly managing me. They are not - this is clear in the interview, contract etc - but in a reference or a letter they will start by inferring that they DIRECTLY managed me and my workload - purely innocently. Usually I'm the expert, so no one but me, and perhaps 1 fellow contractor will even know what I'm doing or how I get it done - non the less I was managed.

Again I strongly believe being managed is not a problem. You can still be part of a team as a service providor and still be managed by the process and people within the scope of your deliverables. It is the control and direction you have to avoid.

Sounds very much like you need to be an IR35 expert to keep your arse out of a problem here, not be so flipant about it all...

On the 24th month rule you must stop claiming expenses as soon as you KNOW you are going to be there for 24 months, not up the last day before 24 months is up.

Nomadd agreed about getting asked to stay perm after. Chatting to some of my colleagues it appears to be pretty rare any of them get asked for perm so would be interested in what Nomadd's situation is when they ask.

[nomadd]

There are many companies who make money off scaremongering and offering various IR35 guarantees and protection.

Agree.

I think 75% of what you read as a newbie (talking only from my own personal experience) is just wrong.

Disagree.

If you're on site 9-5, have a manager to report to, and use their equipment, in most peoples eyes you are inside IR35, no matter what your contract says.

Disagree.

The biggest problem in my view is that our end clients really dont understand contracting, and if questioned in court would answer in a way which would probably make the situation worse.

Agree.

I've not had a single client, who's not tried to make me full time at the end.

Agree.

and everytime I get a linked in recommendation from an ex client its "Managed **** at *****" .... not good.

Disagree (simply don't ask for that type of recommendation.)

cross your fingers.

Agree.

[Scoobos]

Ok thanks for clearing that up,

Helix is not the right company name .. I'll go through my emails at home and let you know by PM if you're interested in reading it. Maybe Mal knows who it is.

in answer to your questions : It "usually" runs like this for me - 3 month contract, with specific aim - my track record is righting disasters - so its usually a disaster or close to. I aim to get it done outright in 3 months.

I come in, for 3 months, anywhere in the uk (or world) at my companies expense, do a cracking job and then attempt to handover.

Client wants "just 1 more thing" or "can you have a look at this" - before I know it, I'm renewed, implementing multiple projects and have no one to handover to, so I'm in effect BAU for my previous projects.... Repeat until its 23 months and I say, thanks but no thanks - as my expenses are usually substantial and my work is almost 80% BAU, single site, 9-5 etc after this term. I'm also influenced by the fact that I'm not one for staying in 1 location, or at 1 customer - I get bored.

In my experience my team leads, site contacts or whatever do believe they are directly managing me. They are not - this is clear in the interview, contract etc - but in a reference or a letter they will start by inferring that they DIRECTLY managed me and my workload - purely innocently. Usually I'm the expert, so no one but me, and perhaps 1 fellow contractor will even know what I'm doing or how I get it done - non the less I was managed.

If you want to tear me a new one, send me a PM to continue , as I'm possibly embarrasing myself here...

[northernladuk]

Moronic is a bit harsh, from one freelancer to another, you can't be moronic and do our jobs. But ok I'll back out and quit derailing the thread.

To not have your contract checked I meant. Possibly harsh as well I admit but wasn't aimed at you

I got 24 months from a guide i got from this very site, albeit many years ago now; as an indication of a place becoming a "permanent place of work" and thus invalidating expenses. Sure its probably silly to confuse the two, but I was advised a while ago to work this way, especially if I only have 1 client on the go for that time, which was the case.

Jeez, who gave you that advice? But this is a perfect example of where you need to understand every word and the principle of the rule so you can weight up the advantages and disadvantages. The 24 month rule is indeed for claiming expenses and subsidence but is it really such a massive issue you would drop a contract for? I can only presume you work well away from home and do not commute? It makes no other difference to your contract or status whatsoever. Interestingly enough the 24 month rule is another horrible grey thing as it was designed for permies not contractors so is no indication on what you do or how you do it.

When you say you leave after 23 months? Do you hand your notice in at 23 months or only allow them to offer you a contract that ends at 23 months exactly?

I also remember just last year, the Helix IR35 case had a letter sent to his client with 100+ questions all trying to get him to say he managed the guy...

I am sure they do send a letter to try to get him to say it, but you send him one to disprove all 100+. Also to be seen to be coaching or directing the clients testimony is frowned upon? I haven't read Helix so might have a look at that. Again managing resources does not amount to client control.

- perhaps I am sorely misguided; I'm off to sniffle about being called a moron....

Cleared that up in the first bit but you can have a hug if you want?

[Scoobos]

Moronic is a bit harsh, from one freelancer to another, you can't be moronic and do our jobs. But ok I'll back out and quit derailing the thread.

I got 24 months from a guide i got from this very site, albeit many years ago now; as an indication of a place becoming a "permanent place of work" and thus invalidating expenses. Sure its probably silly to confuse the two, but I was advised a while ago to work this way, especially if I only have 1 client on the go for that time, which was the case.

I also remember just last year, reading about an IR35 case, that had a letter sent to his client with 100+ questions all trying to get him to say he managed the guy... I think this was even in the PCG news stuff.

- perhaps I am sorely misguided; I'm off to sniffle about being called a moron....

[northernladuk]

I think im offered perm as I refuse to work at the same site for more than 23 months. They want to retain me, after 6 renewals or whatever. If you always

Please tell me I didn't just read this

Just to humour me can you explain why you do this?

I still think in court, having a letter sent to your client and him saying he managed you, is wrong. He's a site contact or client. As I said perhaps im just jaded.

The term manage is generic. If I get a plumber in I can manage him to make sure he doesn't break stuff or make a mess, as a Service Delivery Manager I manage my providors. You need to look up the word manage. It means all sorts. The word you are trying to avoid is direct.

I'm still not sure of the value of paying people to check contracts tho, as its no real protection is it? I mean its hard enough explaining to clients that they are clients sometimes..

You really need to back out of this discussion. You clearly do not have a clue and advice such as not getting your contract checks is really not required. We spend hours directing newbies to get their contract checked. To not do as you suggest is bordering on moronic.

Words just fail me.

sorry for any misinfo. Its only opinion not fact

Nothing to do with opinion when it is clearly defined and tested by professionals.

[Scoobos]

Not in my experience Mr Whippy no, its very rare they allow due to security standards.

This is what I'm trying to say, and why I hold the opinion I do. You are damned either way , I agree with Lisa completely, and thats why I personally just always make sure I'm prepared for the worst.

If the government has difficulty seeing you working freelance (I prefer that term to contractor, as perms can "contract") , your client's team leader thinks hes "managing" you, and you have a court to convince - I don't fancy my odds.

Whilst people do get away with it, its hardly a stress free or low cost thing is it? An investigation and court case can go on years .

For me personally, I'll just save the IR35 money away, just in case I can't convince the court of what I know the truth is. I am certainly never a FTE or anywhere near EVER - I'm just not interested anymore and work in my own right.

Christ I'm bored today contracts please.

[Mr.Whippy]

If you're on site 9-5, have a manager to report to, and use their equipment, in most peoples eyes you are inside IR35, no matter what your contract says.

Is there anywhere left these days that will actually let you use your own supplied equipment on their corporate networks?

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

I stand corrected then!
Say what you see northern lad
I do think everyone already should know what ir35 was aimed at, maybe im jaded but when reading the pcg news it was seeming that HMRC were always calling inside and that its getting worse due to the current statements by Osbourne.

I'm still not sure of the value of paying people to check contracts tho, as its no real protection is it? I mean its hard enough explaining to clients that they are clients sometimes..

There is a value to having the contract checked provided that the contract is an accurate reflection of your working practises; what is wrong is to have a contract re-written to fall outside when you know damn well that you are actually inside.

The trouble with IR35 is that it has mutated over the years as the definition of 'employee' has become wider and wider; Government's agenda seems to be to offer employment protections to everyone whether they want it or not. They also seem unable to grasp the concept of a contractor - in their minds people are either employees or employers (not just of themselves) and there is nothing in between. Consequently it seems as though they are trying to legislate to bring the rest of the country round to their way of thinking. Plus Labour spent all the cash so HMR&C are doing everything they can think of to bring in some cash.

[Scoobos]

I stand corrected then!
Say what you see northern lad
I do think everyone already should know what ir35 was aimed at, maybe im jaded but when reading the pcg news it was seeming that HMRC were always calling inside and that its getting worse due to the current statements by Osbourne.

I think im offered perm as I refuse to work at the same site for more than 23 months. They want to retain me, after 6 renewals or whatever. If you always

I still think in court, having a letter sent to your client and him saying he managed you, is wrong. He's a site contact or client. As I said perhaps im just jaded.

I'm still not sure of the value of paying people to check contracts tho, as its no real protection is it? I mean its hard enough explaining to clients that they are clients sometimes..

sorry for any misinfo. Its only opinion not fact