IR35 Control

[New2011]

Hi All,

I am quite new to contracting still. I run a ltd company.

What I wanted to know was, what things can you show you have control within a Contract?

• Do I need emails for every task my client gives me and set myself a deadline for each task to show i have control?
  
• Also if I work off-site my clients offices and work from my office (based at my home) do I need emails for this for future?
  
• Also if I increase my rates and my clients starts negotiating with me or disagrees/agrees do I need to keep emails to show evidence of me having control?

Are there any others examples or points I could use to show I have control?

I know this is a small picture and not the bigger picture when it comes to IR35. But any help or ideas will help?

[Sausage Surprise]

• No
• No
• No

and No

Where's NLUK to contradict me

[Scoobos]

My 2 cents is :

There are many companies who make money off scaremongering and offering various IR35 guarantees and protection.

I think 75% of what you read as a newbie (talking only from my own personal experience) is just wrong.

If you're on site 9-5, have a manager to report to, and use their equipment, in most peoples eyes you are inside IR35, no matter what your contract says.

The biggest problem in my view is that our end clients really dont understand contracting, and if questioned in court would answer in a way which would probably make the situation worse. I've not had a single client, who's not tried to make me full time at the end - and everytime I get a linked in recommendation from an ex client its "Managed **** at *****" .... not good.

Again, just my 2 cents - so feel free to correct me / flame

Just put some money aside for IR35 and save it, or buy insurance / join a body like the PCG and cross your fingers.

[northernladuk]

• No
• No
• No

and No

Where's NLUK to contradict me

Hard to conradict to you when I agree. In fact I would say the fact you the OP thinks he needs email agreement from the client he is in danager of looking more controlled by doing it.

Scoobos's reply however is a different story....

[northernladuk]

My 2 cents is :

There are many companies who make money off scaremongering and offering various IR35 guarantees and protection.

I think 75% of what you read as a newbie (talking only from my own personal experience) is just wrong.

I would strongly disagree with this. Everything you read as a newbie (from certified sources) should be digested and actioned... to the letter. Without this you will never get an understanding of why it exists and what you are trying to achieve. When you have this THEN you can start to dismiss elements/advice based on a sound knowledge. It is so complicated you cannot just dismiss bits because you think it is irelevant but don't really know.

The chances of being investigated are extremely slim yes and some people would argue it is dead already with only a few cases brought and lost this year. Me? It helps me think like the business I should be and if it takes little effort to be firmly outside I owe it to myself and my company to make sure I do it. If I put all the effort in and spend a few hundred quid a year never get investiaged I will still be a very happy man.

If you're on site 9-5, have a manager to report to, and use their equipment, in most peoples eyes you are inside IR35, no matter what your contract says.

Utter bollox. An example of what I say in the paragraph above. I say utter bollox because it is so simplistic you cannot take that as anything.

The biggest problem in my view is that our end clients really dont understand contracting, and if questioned in court would answer in a way which would probably make the situation worse. I've not had a single client, who's not tried to make me full time at the end - and everytime I get a linked in recommendation from an ex client its "Managed **** at *****" .... not good.

It generally isn't for them to understand contracting as long as the contractor does, unfortuantely most don't. I don't know why each client has asked you to go perm, not one single one of mine ever has but in that position more than most it sounds like you should be eating and breathing IR35, not throwing glib comments around. I also don't see being managed by someone on linked in is a problem either. Even contractors need to be managed by a client to some extent.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

NLUK is right - the more information you have about contracting and the legislation surrounding it the better equipped you will be. Over the last 10 years things have changed dramatically with tax law and employment law morphing into a huge minefield for contractors; just check out HMRC Search if you don't believe me - pages and pages on one single aspect of IR35. At the end of the day forewarned is forearmed.

[Scoobos]

I stand corrected then!
Say what you see northern lad
I do think everyone already should know what ir35 was aimed at, maybe im jaded but when reading the pcg news it was seeming that HMRC were always calling inside and that its getting worse due to the current statements by Osbourne.

I think im offered perm as I refuse to work at the same site for more than 23 months. They want to retain me, after 6 renewals or whatever. If you always

I still think in court, having a letter sent to your client and him saying he managed you, is wrong. He's a site contact or client. As I said perhaps im just jaded.

I'm still not sure of the value of paying people to check contracts tho, as its no real protection is it? I mean its hard enough explaining to clients that they are clients sometimes..

sorry for any misinfo. Its only opinion not fact

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

I stand corrected then!
Say what you see northern lad
I do think everyone already should know what ir35 was aimed at, maybe im jaded but when reading the pcg news it was seeming that HMRC were always calling inside and that its getting worse due to the current statements by Osbourne.

I'm still not sure of the value of paying people to check contracts tho, as its no real protection is it? I mean its hard enough explaining to clients that they are clients sometimes..

There is a value to having the contract checked provided that the contract is an accurate reflection of your working practises; what is wrong is to have a contract re-written to fall outside when you know damn well that you are actually inside.

The trouble with IR35 is that it has mutated over the years as the definition of 'employee' has become wider and wider; Government's agenda seems to be to offer employment protections to everyone whether they want it or not. They also seem unable to grasp the concept of a contractor - in their minds people are either employees or employers (not just of themselves) and there is nothing in between. Consequently it seems as though they are trying to legislate to bring the rest of the country round to their way of thinking. Plus Labour spent all the cash so HMR&C are doing everything they can think of to bring in some cash.

[Mr.Whippy]

If you're on site 9-5, have a manager to report to, and use their equipment, in most peoples eyes you are inside IR35, no matter what your contract says.

Is there anywhere left these days that will actually let you use your own supplied equipment on their corporate networks?

[Scoobos]

Not in my experience Mr Whippy no, its very rare they allow due to security standards.

This is what I'm trying to say, and why I hold the opinion I do. You are damned either way , I agree with Lisa completely, and thats why I personally just always make sure I'm prepared for the worst.

If the government has difficulty seeing you working freelance (I prefer that term to contractor, as perms can "contract") , your client's team leader thinks hes "managing" you, and you have a court to convince - I don't fancy my odds.

Whilst people do get away with it, its hardly a stress free or low cost thing is it? An investigation and court case can go on years .

For me personally, I'll just save the IR35 money away, just in case I can't convince the court of what I know the truth is. I am certainly never a FTE or anywhere near EVER - I'm just not interested anymore and work in my own right.

Christ I'm bored today contracts please.