Reply to: Overtime rate, Nothing in contract

[northernladuk]

I think I had a few days sick a few months ago and holiday etc that meant there would be good few days left on the budget left after my end date, so think he is trying to get them "spent". I reckon it will be 4-5 days over the next month then back to normal.

Nice. Guess that is a for you then.

[russell]

Sounds like a nice outcome! Not having read all the thread again can I just ask, although you have an agreement in place to pay for extra hours, is the client aware you are going to purposely work these extra hours regularly or does he think this is an adhoc arrangement to be used from time to time to fix problems? I ask as normally clients have you in a budget somewhere, working the extra hours regularly is going to put a strain on his budget making you a target at the very least?

I think I had a few days sick a few months ago and holiday etc that meant there would be good few days left on the budget left after my end date, so think he is trying to get them "spent". I reckon it will be 4-5 days over the next month then back to normal.

[northernladuk]

Update is I accepted the 1x rate for extra hours. I will attempt to to an extra day a week. Also got extended and negotiated working from home a day a week.

Sounds like a nice outcome! Not having read all the thread again can I just ask, although you have an agreement in place to pay for extra hours, is the client aware you are going to purposely work these extra hours regularly or does he think this is an adhoc arrangement to be used from time to time to fix problems? I ask as normally clients have you in a budget somewhere, working the extra hours regularly is going to put a strain on his budget making you a target at the very least?

[russell]

Update is I accepted the 1x rate for extra hours. I will attempt to to an extra day a week. Also got extended and negotiated working from home a day a week.

[northernladuk]

However, if they want me to do 10 hours a day, 5 days a week for two weeks then I'll charge them extra. Now if someone would like to come up with a suggestion for how to charge the client for extra hours without it setting off the forum's ultra sensitive IR35 detector then I'd be interested to hear it

It's ultra sensitive as most people are not aware of the finer points so have to go to the letter to get the situation corrected and to instill the need for this type of thinking in the poster.

You are an old head and know the risks and your situation. In your case I would say do what you need to regardless of IR35. You are most likely covered in every other situation so stretching it in another area won't kill you. You are also experienced enough to come up with something clever.

I don't think we can give you an answer that will work for you TBH..

FYI I would agree to a fixed amount and put a line in the invoice additional services required or something. 10 hours a day for 5 days, thats 10 hours over. Split the diff to 8 hours and request a payment of about a day. Whether your client would accept that retrospectively is another question.

[Wanderer]

Depends if hours are stated on contract rather than professional working day surely? This causes ambiguity surely as to what constitutes a working day......

OK, I'm on a daily rate and I do an average of 7-8 hours a day. If they want me to do a 10+ hour day some time then that's no problem, I'll do that too. Other days I'll work slightly less than normal. It evens out, I'm not going to make a fuss about it because I'm on a day rate not an hourly one.

However, if they want me to do 10 hours a day, 5 days a week for two weeks then I'll charge them extra. Now if someone would like to come up with a suggestion for how to charge the client for extra hours without it setting off the forum's ultra sensitive IR35 detector then I'd be interested to hear it.

The bottom line though is that I'm a business man, my time is money and don't work for free, it's as simple as that.

[northernladuk]

Well to use the analogy Hector is fond of using; compare the difference in cost of arranging for a plumber to visit your house three weeks in advance at 2.30 in the afternoon and calling him out at 2.00 am on a Sunday morning.

Premiums for callouts/unsociable hours are perfectly acceptable busuiness practices.

It has nothing to do with an analogy. BB is rightly pointing out the fact we are discussing overtime and 1.5x. It quite rightly makes you sound like a permie. A business does not deal in overtime or 1.5x. The plumber doesn't go on about overtime or 1.5x this and so on. Do a deal on the costs, don't use permie terms. That's all. No one has a problem it costs more etc, just word it/deal with it like a business. Set a value of day rate for x days is £xxxx or sell some call off days and so on.

[jmo21]

Well to use the analogy Hector is fond of using; compare the difference in cost of arranging for a plumber to visit your house three weeks in advance at 2.30 in the afternoon and calling him out at 2.00 am on a Sunday morning.

Premiums for callouts/unsociable hours are perfectly acceptable busuiness practices.

Agreed. It's not overtime.

It's chargeable fee outside of agreed contract.

[Goatfell]

Yeah right, believe that if you wish. I'd love to hear what they say to the tax inspector when under an IR35 investigation!

Well to use the analogy Hector is fond of using; compare the difference in cost of arranging for a plumber to visit your house three weeks in advance at 2.30 in the afternoon and calling him out at 2.00 am on a Sunday morning.

Premiums for callouts/unsociable hours are perfectly acceptable busuiness practices.

[BolshieBastard]

They are contractors, no "supposed" about it. As contractors they are running businesses and will do what they can to make mutually rewarding agreements with their customers in respect of charge out rates for additional hours and/or work packages etc.

Boo

Yeah right, believe that if you wish. I'd love to hear what they say to the tax inspector when under an IR35 investigation!

[Vandalay]

They are contractors, no "supposed" about it. As contractors they are running businesses and will do what they can to make mutually rewarding agreements with their customers in respect of charge out rates for additional hours and/or work packages etc.

Boo

It's a grey area for me - if you are an independent contractor charging direct to the client, then by all means tag on your own terms for out of hours/on demand fees.

Working through an agency is a little different, as you are less in control of your rate.

Completely understand where OP is coming from though.

[Boo]

Overtime!? 1.5 times hourly rate!?

Are these people supposed to be permie's or contractors!?

They are contractors, no "supposed" about it. As contractors they are running businesses and will do what they can to make mutually rewarding agreements with their customers in respect of charge out rates for additional hours and/or work packages etc.

Boo

[psychocandy]

No, the client engages the services of the consultant company for x days at y hours per day for z months. If they want more hours than that worked then the consultant company is going to charge extra. There is no change to the amount of direction and control exerted.

Depends if hours are stated on contract rather than professional working day surely? This causes ambiguity surely as to what constitutes a working day......

[psychocandy]

A manager higher up the chain picked an arbitrary date and promised various people interested it will be ready then. Since then it has been reduced to a crippled product to fit this deadline. Now they are adding back needed functionality. It's a disaster hence my unwillingness to extend. I will say no to them as they knocked back my overtime rate level.

Slightly different. If the deadline is caused by piss poor planning by the client then I'd agree with you. Stuff them.

I'm same here - I dont put myself out if the issue is caused by piss poor organisation. If its a proper operational emergency thats different.

[BolshieBastard]

Overtime!? 1.5 times hourly rate!?

Are these people supposed to be permie's or contractors!?