Reply to: State of .Net Market

[nomadd]

If its like that in a fortnight you probably should panic personally I reckon it will be double that then.

I'm on the bench in two weeks time. So I'll get back to you!

[wurzel]

yes its April but its also Easter week and School Holidays. If in two weeks time its 301 I would be worried but on the Friday of a week with school and bank holidays in it 301 is hardly that surprising.

If its like that in a fortnight you probably should panic personally I reckon it will be double that then.

True. let's hope you're right.

[eek]

Down to 301 now & this is April FFS.

Fortunately I've been extended until August but it doesn't bode well for then.

yes its April but its also Easter week and School Holidays. If in two weeks time its 301 I would be worried but on the Friday of a week with school and bank holidays in it 301 is hardly that surprising.

If its like that in a fortnight you probably should panic personally I reckon it will be double that then.

[escapeUK]

Clearly you are not married.

I thought that was obvious with some of the things I say. I never will be either, its mine all mine! <evil laugh>

[nomadd]

How did £96,000 pa ever become not enough?

Clearly you are not married.

[jaundicedeyes]

Don't forget the tax applicable is 21% so 96000 will be whittled away to ~76K.
I'm not sure if you would have enough to pay yourself the 50K salary AND the employers contributions with this amount? (could be wrong)

nevertheless, the biggest trade off will be your rights.
The client can throw you out instantly, and you'll be unable to do anything about it, surely this risk is itself worth a premium.
Then if you do perform well, there is always the IR35 risk you carry for 6 years thereafter.
we haven't talked about pension provision, medical, some training...

You'd have to accept a pretty tight quality of life for the duration of that contract, at the very least accept that you aint gonna get rich, that's for sure.

400/day .. in London.. for the hours often required..and to put up with all the nonsense that goes with it
I'd think twice, especially if the project was crap and led no where.

as a footnote:
The Irish Prison Services are offering rates of 320/day outside Dublin, compared with a London F/S client offering £300/day for an apparent junior role that incidentally required one to gain 15 years worth of experience in almost every technology known to mankind..

No thanks. I'd rather become a recruitment agent...at least I'd learn something new.

[escapeUK]

Oliverson, I'm a bit down in the dumps at the post - I respect your knowledge and skills etc - but turning down 400 a day as "not enough" is commercial suicide in this market..

Exactly. How did £96,000 pa ever become not enough? (Based on 5 days for 48 weeks)

[Scoobos]

Oliverson, I'm a bit down in the dumps at the post - I respect your knowledge and skills etc - but turning down 400 a day as "not enough" is commercial suicide in this market..

Talking of the hypothetical "contractor duty" to push rates up, I fundamentally disagree and its being unreasonable and only going to encourage more offshoring if you're seen as greedy.

There's a very REAL duty as a Managing Director of a LTD company to ensure that your company turns a profit. I've talked myself into taking a big rate cut for this very reason - can you imagine a legitimate company directory saying no to some INCOME over none - because the employee usually gets paid more? The MD would say - no - you do the work or you find yourself another job

I don't care what you do programming wise - if you go FTE you'll be lucky to get 50k a year after tax (or perhaps even before in this market).

As a SME - HP offered me 30k for a job that used to pay 65, just last month - why ? Because others will go in at that rate in FTE just to bolster their CV.

There's a very real global recession on and its not stopping, perhaps even a "Great Depression 2"

I'm glad I've just secured a contract as having seen you as a another skilled guy unable to get anything, seeing you're turning down 2k a week is soul destroying.

[wurzel]

Answering my own question here really.

I have a benchmark test that I use; I go into Jobserve & do a search for C# contracts. Pre 2008, I'd get around 900 results. At the height of the slump, it got down to just under 300. Did a search yesterday & I got 390 matches .

Down to 301 now & this is April FFS.

Fortunately I've been extended until August but it doesn't bode well for then.

[oliverson]

I've been put forward for two 400 a day roles at HSBC too - just shows you how small the market is and how much competition there is.

My daily email alert from efinancial is showing an average of 1 C# role per day in London. Hell I can't even get perm roles because they keep getting put on hold.

And I am currently working on a mobile app for a client for free. Going from 500+ to working for free to update the very latest skills is painful.

It's like I have regraduated and started all over again. In the fall of 2001 I was about to give up and become a plumber. Now I'm back in the same boat.

No disrespect but it's people keeling over and accepting pitiful rates that is giving the parasite banks what they want. As contractors it's our duty to push the rates in the right direction or we may as well just go back to being permies.

[lamboman]

I've been put forward for two 400 a day roles at HSBC too - just shows you how small the market is and how much competition there is.

My daily email alert from efinancial is showing an average of 1 C# role per day in London. Hell I can't even get perm roles because they keep getting put on hold.

And I am currently working on a mobile app for a client for free. Going from 500+ to working for free to update the very latest skills is painful.

It's like I have regraduated and started all over again. In the fall of 2001 I was about to give up and become a plumber. Now I'm back in the same boat.

[Scoobos]

well, regarding the 400 mark - I'd take it if its there oliverson and that right there is probably why you're struggling. A fool turns down 2 grand a week in this market

Ive just accepted a role at 210 per day, just to get some recent experience - this time last year I was getting 550.
It hurts a bit, but I'm sick at staring at Jobserve hoping for something to happen, dealing with kids straight out of carphone warehouse; and also seeing roles that are carbon copies of my CV

I agree with Russell's statement, but only because I would have said exactly the same this time last year . Once you've fallen into the black hole though I think you realise, oh damn, it can happen to me.

With my niche product (with which there are NO roles, my new one is unrelated) - I can officially say I am the 2nd best person in the UK and still people choose to outsource to novices. - It's not as simple as having the skills during a recession; in my humble opinion.

[oliverson]

Nomadd is spot.

I have 12 years excellent experience - C#, ASP.Net, SQL server, VBA, HTML, CSS, jQuery, MVC, etc.

I have interviewed at number of major players in the city and CW, and have been offered jobs, but the contracts never came through.

Yes read that again - I PASSED the interviews, was offered the jobs, accepted, did the starter paperwork but NO contract turned up in each case.

Wtf do you have to do to get a job. It is absolutely crazy out there.

Same happened to me. I have a similar level of experience (C#, WPF, WCF, PRISM, LINQ, RX, TDD, etc, etc, etc) and I'm getting very little action from London. I don't know which market Russell operates in but it's clearly not mine (London).

The problem I see is that almost every contractor in London has an eye on the market. Plenty stayed where they were after the rate cuts (where else would you go?) and are looking for the first decent opportunity. Others, like me, finished their term and weren't extended due to budgetary concerns (I was the fourth out of our team). Then of course you have the disgruntled permies who, having received no bonus, fancy trying their hand at contracting. Finally you have the bobs driving down the rates and opportunities (on that subject I'm awaiting an interview for a role out of London where the new manager is looking to replace his 12 bob offshore teams with natives - bringing the whole work back on shore - I'll give him a discount on rate just because I support the cause!).

When you have the likes of HSBC in Canary Wharf trying it on by wanting to pay seasoned contractors the likes of £ 400 you know there are problems.

[amcdonald]

Yes read that again - I PASSED the interviews, was offered the jobs, accepted, did the starter paperwork but NO contract turned up in each case.

That's always been part of contracting, just because they offer a contract doesn't mean they've got the budget signed off for it

[lamboman]

Nomadd is spot.

I have 12 years excellent experience - C#, ASP.Net, SQL server, VBA, HTML, CSS, jQuery, MVC, etc.

I have interviewed at number of major players in the city and CW, and have been offered jobs, but the contracts never came through.

Yes read that again - I PASSED the interviews, was offered the jobs, accepted, did the starter paperwork but NO contract turned up in each case.

Wtf do you have to do to get a job. It is absolutely crazy out there.