Reply to: Contract renewals with Indian cos

[NotAllThere]

I have deleted a few posts that could have been construed by a sensitive flower as being racist. Robust remarks are fine - general negative comments of an entire ethnic group are not permitted.

The shifted to General.

[rambaugh]

I have hired 2 people in India to do some work for me. I agree with all of he shortcomings mentioned. But its also a fact that
1. They are cheaper
2. they get the job done quicker
3. They do what they are told. cant be said about an European with similar skill levels.
4. Will give up part of their personal time to ensure that things are delivered on time.

So, for clearly defined jobs, I would outsource to an Indian company any day.

1. It can take up to 5-6 engineers to produce the same level of output on a like-for-like task when compared to a local engineer. This ratio likely increases the less process oriented a task is (e.g. compare support to design)

2. It's quicker because a lot of corners are cut. Quality is typically absent in any production artefact.

3. Confrontation is not in Indian culture. Any tensions that surface will often get swept under the carpet leaving them unresolved and overlooked often catching you out later.

4. Most contractors I know are committed to delivery for their customers and often pull in the extra hours when needed.

[Sid]

I have hired 2 people in India to do some work for me. I agree with all of he shortcomings mentioned. But its also a fact that
1. They are cheaper
2. they get the job done quicker
3. They do what they are told. cant be said about an European with similar skill levels.
4. Will give up part of their personal time to ensure that things are delivered on time.

So, for clearly defined jobs, I would outsource to an Indian company any day.

completely agree here....an European would be a master C programmer with 30 yrs experience but would like to retire being just that, whereas an Indian programmer would have worked on half-a-dozen programming languages over 10 yrs. Sometimes showing flexibility at work and being agile and adaptable makes ppl thrive, otherwise we whine in forums about our job being outsourced...

[AnthonyQuinn]

Yes there is an Indian mafia as they are low paid, indecisive and keep saying yes sir

I have hired 2 people in India to do some work for me. I agree with all of he shortcomings mentioned. But its also a fact that
1. They are cheaper
2. they get the job done quicker
3. They do what they are told. cant be said about an European with similar skill levels.
4. Will give up part of their personal time to ensure that things are delivered on time.

So, for clearly defined jobs, I would outsource to an Indian company any day.

[Sid]

No, your sarcasm is misplaced here.

It's because this kind of action is a 'matter of course' for Indian consultancies because they have grown up with a systematic acceptance and encouragement of abuse. This is endemic within India on the whole from an employer/employee point of view, and so these corporations believe they can use the same system internationally.

It's a real shame because there is very little that we can do to discourage this. More and more consultants/contractors are forced to take on work from Indian consultancies because they are the only ones winning work (due to undercutting and visa system abuse). Though, once in, the only work given is to train the offshore (or onshored) staff before being given the boot.

A 'normal' contract, as you put it, would be OK if the consultancy hires a contractor to train their staff for 6 weeks or however long. It is not 'normal' to be hired for 3 months of project work, only to be stuck training their staff for 6 weeks and then terminated.

Anybody knows who UK Border Agency outsources its IT work to? Hope not another Indian IT consultancy....!!

[theroyale]

No, your sarcasm is misplaced here.

It's because this kind of action is a 'matter of course' for Indian consultancies because they have grown up with a systematic acceptance and encouragement of abuse. This is endemic within India on the whole from an employer/employee point of view, and so these corporations believe they can use the same system internationally.

That's a fairly large-scale generalisation to make.

It's a real shame because there is very little that we can do to discourage this. More and more consultants/contractors are forced to take on work from Indian consultancies because they are the only ones winning work (due to undercutting and visa system abuse). Though, once in, the only work given is to train the offshore (or onshored) staff before being given the boot.

I agree on the visa abuse. The ICT system as it is is a joke. I'd like to see a lot more out in the open.

A 'normal' contract, as you put it, would be OK if the consultancy hires a contractor to train their staff for 6 weeks or however long. It is not 'normal' to be hired for 3 months of project work, only to be stuck training their staff for 6 weeks and then terminated.

Do you mean they're given *no* indication that what's actually coming up is knowledge transfer? I find this hard to believe - I've been in workplaces where work has systematically been moving offshore, and it does become fairly obvious to everyone within the departments involved that this is actually what is happening. If the company/department you work for has quite visibly started offshoring work, getting Indian PMs and developers in, setting up weekly conference calls to India and what not, I'd have to be a bit thick (or in denial) to not realise what exactly is going on.

This is not to say that Indian companies are being sensitive enough about it or have the slightest bit of tact. They're not and they don't. But its ridiculous to single them out for this sort of behaviour - the world over the story of downsizing has been employees (even those who've given 10 or 20 years to a company) coming in one fine day to their desk, only to find they have a meeting with HR and are told to clear their desks by end of day. This isn't any different and if anything I'd be blaming the parent company that initially did the offshoring for not negotiating the terms of the handover better and in more detail.

[ChimpMaster]

The sort of thing that the forum routinely tells its members to accept as a fact of life if its a 'normal' contract, but one that needs special mention because its one of these consultancies. Hmm...

No, your sarcasm is misplaced here.

It's because this kind of action is a 'matter of course' for Indian consultancies because they have grown up with a systematic acceptance and encouragement of abuse. This is endemic within India on the whole from an employer/employee point of view, and so these corporations believe they can use the same system internationally.

It's a real shame because there is very little that we can do to discourage this. More and more consultants/contractors are forced to take on work from Indian consultancies because they are the only ones winning work (due to undercutting and visa system abuse). Though, once in, the only work given is to train the offshore (or onshored) staff before being given the boot.

A 'normal' contract, as you put it, would be OK if the consultancy hires a contractor to train their staff for 6 weeks or however long. It is not 'normal' to be hired for 3 months of project work, only to be stuck training their staff for 6 weeks and then terminated.

[theroyale]

Got a 3 month contract, to deliver something but in reality he had to train a bunch of Indians on how to do his job for 6 weeks. After 6 weeks they terminated his contract with no notice and that was it. They're out to screw us for our knowledge and possibly to win contracts but then all work will go to Indians. A generalisation of course, but be aware.

The sort of thing that the forum routinely tells its members to accept as a fact of life if its a 'normal' contract, but one that needs special mention because its one of these consultancies. Hmm...

[dk75]

The Indian Mafia is very real, very alive and kicking!

Two years ago i had two job offers, one was for an Indian consultancy as head of the virtualisation programme (Permie), and one was for an Infrastructure Director for an American organization (Contract). I declined the Indian consultancy role as I wanted to have a go in the Middle east. Two years later and having made a very good packet I decided that I had enough with the sh*t and let me elaborate a bit more on the specifics of the indian mafia.

Yes there is an Indian mafia as they are low paid, indecisive and keep saying yes sir
They are incompetent in making an meanigful decisions on there own even in their own field.
Unless you directly force them to make the decision they will refrain from doing so and wait to be micromanaged
They are allergic to responsibility and have issues with accountability.
Their number one priority is the blame game and how they can cover their arses.
They can't organise anything that needs to have a decision made even if their life depended on it!
They tend to go around the chain of command and complaint to the superiors regardless if in the meetings they had no leg to stand on (its just their nature and how they behave)
They steal other people's ideas and knowhow and they present those same ideas as their own, however once confronted to discuss it in more detail they become silent as they are chancers...
They look after each other as to who they will screw next and they tend to go in packs especially in management.
Most of them in the middle east are stateless as even though they are born in the country they dont have the local nationality so they go back to Pakistan or India and they are desperate to get their hands in EU/US/Canadian passports and citizenship. I MEAN DESPERATE!!!!
I negotiated a huge packet before i got there and they were desperate to find out how much i earned.
When the bosses are not around is like the zoo with banging desks, shouting (to their country men) and generally dissapear on all sorts of sickys, family problems, training (you name the excuse and they already have it)
Having said that there is a distinction between Asians born and bred in Western countries as i had some amazing engineers in my team which was very proud that i recruited, however the ones coming from the subcontinent are absolutely useless and they have a catalogue of certification (in all fields) but didnt know the basics when asked in interviews. You just know someone else did their certification and its a huge industry that makes money.

Finally I decided enough is enough, gave my months contract notice and will be returning back to the UK next month to begin my "work & life rehabilitation" as I want to go back to normality...

Wish me happy return's as I can't bloody wait!

DK

Mod note: removed the name of the Indian consultancy.

[mos]

I also worked for TATA (TCS) in London. I also have been let go in the middle of 7 weeks contract (initially advertised as 6 months) with one week notice which I spent providing training to the guy who just arrived from New Delhi. After termination he kept calling me at home asking for more help with the code which I developed !!!
Unfortunately LBG is likely to get overrun by TCS - they have already hired a number of ex TCS Analysts to run critical high budget projects.

[Sid]

That is very true. On a broader scale, British companies are dwindling. We have exported jobs to the extent that those nations are now taking advantage of us and with the privatised country we have, we are getting in to a situation like the US with their Chinese owned bonds, where our utilities are now out of our control and the Chinese are even buying in to the UK now with the recent buy in to Thames water.

*Sigh*, is there any schooling one can take where you learn how not to get screwed over by foreign companies?

I would learn Mandarin instead......as they say join them when you can't beat them

[wim121]

That is very true. On a broader scale, British companies are dwindling. We have exported jobs to the extent that those nations are now taking advantage of us and with the privatised country we have, we are getting in to a situation like the US with their Chinese owned bonds, where our utilities are now out of our control and the Chinese are even buying in to the UK now with the recent buy in to Thames water.

*Sigh*, is there any schooling one can take where you learn how not to get screwed over by foreign companies?

[Sid]

Agree with what jojogabor said. Never touch indian companies with a bargepole and be very careful even around indian contractors.

True, but very difficult to avoid them now. They seem to be entrenched everywhere and most headhunters are recruiting on their behalf. Client is happy with their cut-price rate and this is not going to change in the future...I'd join one of them but try to keep an upper hand by negotiating tough..

[pacharan]

Agree with what jojogabor said. Never touch indian companies with a bargepole and be very careful even around indian contractors....

I agree Wim.

Spent some time working in the Middle East a few years ago before onshoring started happening here.

The phenomenon was known to us western ex-pats as the Indian Mafia.

Would take any opportunity to stitch you up for their advantage. Wasn't just work related stuff. They would eavesdrop on private conversations and if they gleaned any titbits they could use to their advantage and to your detriment they'd be straight to the head of department's office.

[Sid]

I was a permie at an Indian telco's UK operation and it was a real eye-opener. The company feels they own you as they've been so kind to employ you - it's like the stories of Japanese company men in the 80s and they've developed arse covering and blame shifting to high art.
Most of the time my customers were Indian SIs and they were even more disorganised and treated suppliers like something they found on their shoe, even when you saved them from a complete cock-up. What really amazed me was the abuse of the work permit system. Now I can kind of understand a techie needing to have "special knowledge of the company" but no one can tell me there's any excuse for shipping in sales guys!
I joked with my manager when I quit that I'd be replaced by an Indian and he said it would never happen but I rang him a couple of months later and surprise, surprise someone had flown in from Chennai.

I was a permie with the UK operation of an Indian outfit- I was non-billable for almost 2 months, while local contractors were being put forward to the client for billable work right under my nose!!- The Indian line manager will call up at my deskphone to tell the contractor sitting next to me that they are being put forward to another project....I doubt if they even have a business sense to realise that contractors are expensive then permies..most times they act just like bodyshoppers..happy to get their £15/day cut from sub-contracting