Reply to: Working Time Regulations

[Spikeh]

I'm not trying to skive or duck the hours; I come in earlier than 8 quite often and haven't always left 15 minutes early, nor spot on 4pm... it's just the most common time I leave, that's all. Its all come about because the project is late and the project managers wanted a whinge about why... I assure you, I am not the problem, just a passing comment or a scapegoat in this instance.

I do however, want my client to have a clear understanding of the relationship between us; I'm an IT consultant employed by another company, providing expert services to them for the duration of project. The problem is that most managers do not see you as a legal entity, they see you as a temporary resource and rarely have the time or the inclination to study the specifics of the relationship. It's obviously in a contractor's interest to keep up to date with legislation etc, but rarely comes in to play in a real life scenario. I have made it clear to my current client that I am there to provide services, and there are regular discussions / meetings where I provide solutions for various aspects of the project; there's no real confusion as to my expertise, there are just a few points that are obviously misunderstood.

And yes, I'm going through an agency with this one... though I rarely trust agents to deliver the specifics in detail - they often sugar coat things (to both the consultant and the client) to obtain / keep business. I've met a few who understand the difference, but not many I'm afraid to say

To be honest, I may be over analysing things as I always do. There's no real problem, and I'm as flexible as I can be (I'm working the bank holiday and a few weekends, even though I'm not behind. Basically, the project has been very badly managed and massively underestimated), but when a client (or an agent in some past instances!) have stated false facts, it gets my back up!

[cojak]

I would let you go and get someone prepared to do the hours required

Maybe you could suggest meeting the managers needs whilst staying out of IR35?

Or is it a case of "Do as I say not as I do"?

[The Agents View]

Personally I would just get in 15-30 minutes earlier as not taking a lunch break is unhealthy. While we don't have to comply with the Working Time Directive it's there for a reason.

Though if they are being anal you can always send them a copy of your opt-out as an employee of your limited company.

Is the role through an agent? If so, you should be separate yourself from the issue, and let the agent take the flack for it. Explain that your client is XYZ agency, and ask them to address concerns to them. Again...it's what we get paid for.....

[SueEllen]

I would let you go and get someone prepared to do the hours required

Personally I would just get in 15-30 minutes earlier as not taking a lunch break is unhealthy. While we don't have to comply with the Working Time Directive it's there for a reason.

Though if they are being anal you can always send them a copy of your opt-out as an employee of your limited company.

[tarbera]

If you were working for me

I would let you go and get someone prepared to do the hours required

[SueEllen]

You are of course completely right in what you say but Im not sure if its going to get the clients back up like this. In my experience, most clients just want you to turn up and act like a permie without getting too much grief off you.....

Psychocandy is right with one thing if you email them first before speaking to them about the contents of the email you may put their back up.

[psychocandy]

What do you think of this? It's a considerably shorter version of the 12 paragraph original!

<<
With respect, in reference to your comments in regards to lunch, you’re mixing up contractors with permanent employees. I am a director of my own company, and am therefore not caught under a number of the Working Time Regulations, as I am an excluded class. I am not employed by <client>; you are my client, and I am therefore within my rights to stipulate my working hours, so long as they are appropriate (we verbally agreed 8 till 4 at the interview stage) and the work is completed to a satisfactory level. I appreciate I have left 15 minutes early at times, and if 15 minutes less work per day is a problem, I will make sure I am available until 4pm every day. If you require me at any other time, I can provide you my mobile phone number and I can work remotely.

I am, of course, required to obey any health and safety whilst on site, and sign any confidentiality agreements etc, but the hours I work, the breaks I take and how I perform the duties set out in the contract is at my discretion. This is the legal standpoint, though of course it is in my interest to work the hours set out in the contract.
>>

You are of course completely right in what you say but Im not sure if its going to get the clients back up like this. In my experience, most clients just want you to turn up and act like a permie without getting too much grief off you.....

[Spikeh]

What do you think of this? It's a considerably shorter version of the 12 paragraph original!

<<
With respect, in reference to your comments in regards to lunch, you’re mixing up contractors with permanent employees. I am a director of my own company, and am therefore not caught under a number of the Working Time Regulations, as I am an excluded class. I am not employed by <client>; you are my client, and I am therefore within my rights to stipulate my working hours, so long as they are appropriate (we verbally agreed 8 till 4 at the interview stage) and the work is completed to a satisfactory level. I appreciate I have left 15 minutes early at times, and if 15 minutes less work per day is a problem, I will make sure I am available until 4pm every day. If you require me at any other time, I can provide you my mobile phone number and I can work remotely.

I am, of course, required to obey any health and safety whilst on site, and sign any confidentiality agreements etc, but the hours I work, the breaks I take and how I perform the duties set out in the contract is at my discretion. This is the legal standpoint, though of course it is in my interest to work the hours set out in the contract.
>>

[Spikeh]

OK, thanks... I did read that on the HMRC website, but it sounds quite ambiguous. I suppose I just don't want to lose the contract, but if it comes down to it, I'm not working longer hours either... it's just not feasible for me

[SueEllen]

Well, the permies all come in totally different times - they're on FlexiTime I think.

Overall, my question was in relation to the Working Time Regulations - do they apply to contractors in any capacity?

Nope.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...lation/20/made

However what the client can enforce on you is any regulations that are for clearly come under the Health and Safety at Work Act. This doesn't as it doesn't even have "Health and Safety" in the title.

I've written a long email to the person who signs my timesheets, explaining the contractual relationship we have... but I'm not entirely sure if I should send it or not! I have gotten in to trouble a number of times when clients have been funny with with for one reason or another (usually late payment), and I can smell trouble ahead.

Try and make the email shorter.

Just point out you are in an excluded class under the legislation because you are the managing director of your limited company, and you can choose what hours you work.

[Spikeh]

Well, the permies all come in totally different times - they're on FlexiTime I think.

Overall, my question was in relation to the Working Time Regulations - do they apply to contractors in any capacity?

I've written a long email to the person who signs my timesheets, explaining the contractual relationship we have... but I'm not entirely sure if I should send it or not! I have gotten in to trouble a number of times when clients have been funny with with for one reason or another (usually late payment), and I can smell trouble ahead.

The thing is, it's a great contract - the work is interesting, they ARE fairly relaxed (I think project management have raised an issue with me leaving 15 mins early because the project is late - though I'm quite far ahead of my work), the rate is brilliant and I'm just short of another 6 month extension, which is certainly welcome.

This isn't a big issue right now... it's all come about because I've told them I need a few days off in a few weeks time, and there's work planned for me. If I hadn't said I was going to be off, this wouldn't have happened! Politics, hu?

[JamJarST]

Good luck with that when the IR35 inspector comes around.....

You can say that again .....

[The Agents View]

My working hours are 9 to 5 as stated in the contract with 1 hr lunch.
I used to take 30 min lunch and leave at 4:30 pm.
But my mgr insisted to stay still 5 and he even complained to my agent when I leave @ 4:50 pm.
My mgr has no issues with my work, but he wanted me to stay till 5pm.

This is my first contract renewal with him. Not quite sure to accept the next renewal if offered

Good luck with that when the IR35 inspector comes around.....

[Bhanupriya]

My working hours are 9 to 5 as stated in the contract with 1 hr lunch.
I used to take 30 min lunch and leave at 4:30 pm.
But my mgr insisted to stay still 5 and he even complained to my agent when I leave @ 4:50 pm.
My mgr has no issues with my work, but he wanted me to stay till 5pm.

This is my first contract renewal with him. Not quite sure to accept the next renewal if offered

[craig1]

The place I'm at now, I get in at 8:30, take a short lunch and leave before 5. Most of the permies get in around 10 to 10:30 and leave well into the evening. I've had a couple of grumbles that I'm not "fitting in with their culture". I was in a fairly polite mood so I explained that that 90 minutes in the morning gives me perfect undisturbed peace to get on with difficult stuff that needs no collaboration because the office is a noisy hell-hole once the permies are in and gossiping, I made it clear that they hired me to provide expert project management and that's exactly what they're getting, it's not really too much of their business how much lunch I take or when I go home as long as I'm getting the work done to a high standard.

I used the example of the IBM people who are in the office for short-term consultancy, they turn up mid morning and are gone by 4pm yet IBM invoices for full days without anyone grumbling. I expect to have the same mindset applied to me, even though I'm doing far more hours than the IBM lot.

That all said, I don't think I'll be accepting a renewal, if offered!