Reply to: Daily rate - attitude to hours worked etc

[psychocandy]

Agreed and lets be fair we haven't seen this happen a lot on the forums. A few posts about clients not signing the last time sheet but no one walked or not paid for no work.

The lesson here is do not assume you have a notice period and that it works as you think it does, even if it is in the contract. If you sit pretty and assume you have a rock solid notice period you will get a nasty surprise at some point. You are a business so have to think like a business. Only permies are allowed to sit their and think their contracts of employment will deliver what they say.

OK. Advice taken. Thankls.

[northernladuk]

Having said that, most of the reputable organisations pay up for the notice period, even if they want you not to turn up at the site. I would just make sure, that the time sheets are signed for the notice period before leaving the client site.

Agreed and lets be fair we haven't seen this happen a lot on the forums. A few posts about clients not signing the last time sheet but no one walked or not paid for no work.

The lesson here is do not assume you have a notice period and that it works as you think it does, even if it is in the contract. If you sit pretty and assume you have a rock solid notice period you will get a nasty surprise at some point. You are a business so have to think like a business. Only permies are allowed to sit their and think their contracts of employment will deliver what they say.

[psychocandy]

On client site is important. If you are at client site, sitting on a desk without any work, but the client has not given you marching orders, then you can/should invoice the client for the time of yours spent at client site. If the client gives you a notice of termination, and say they cannot offer you any work then you risk getting no payments at all for the notice period.

Having said that, most of the reputable organisations pay up for the notice period, even if they want you not to turn up at the site. I would just make sure, that the time sheets are signed for the notice period before leaving the client site.

Yeh. I see.

With my client/agency they dont actually sign the timesheets. Timesheets and invoice go off to agency and agency sort out the signing or whatever. Think its done elctronically.

[rd409]

I see what you mean. Is the 'or on client site' important? Surely it makes a difference if you turn up for work but they aint got any? Unless of course they tell you not to show up.

On client site is important. If you are at client site, sitting on a desk without any work, but the client has not given you marching orders, then you can/should invoice the client for the time of yours spent at client site. If the client gives you a notice of termination, and say they cannot offer you any work then you risk getting no payments at all for the notice period.

Having said that, most of the reputable organisations pay up for the notice period, even if they want you not to turn up at the site. I would just make sure, that the time sheets are signed for the notice period before leaving the client site.

[psychocandy]

This is one of the IR35 pillars. Mutuality of Obligation. The client does not have to provide you with work, just because you have a contract. If you dont have work, they dont have to pay you. Usually the client signs off the timesheet for the notice period, but they can refuse to sign it as well.

The agency has to pay you for signed worksheet or work that you have done (you have to prove that you did the work or were on client site) irrespective of whether they get paid by the client or not, if you are opted in. But if the client refuses to sign the timesheet, or if you cannot prove that you were on client site and did some work, the agency does not have to pay you anything even if you are opted in.

I see what you mean. Is the 'or on client site' important? Surely it makes a difference if you turn up for work but they aint got any? Unless of course they tell you not to show up.

[rd409]

I thought the agency were obliged to pay you (as long as you havent opted out)?

This is one of the IR35 pillars. Mutuality of Obligation. The client does not have to provide you with work, just because you have a contract. If you dont have work, they dont have to pay you. Usually the client signs off the timesheet for the notice period, but they can refuse to sign it as well.

The agency has to pay you for signed worksheet or work that you have done (you have to prove that you did the work or were on client site) irrespective of whether they get paid by the client or not, if you are opted in. But if the client refuses to sign the timesheet, or if you cannot prove that you were on client site and did some work, the agency does not have to pay you anything even if you are opted in.

[psychocandy]

Wrong. You are in contract for that period but you get paid for work you do. if they tell you there is no work they are not always obliged to pay you. Notice periods in contracts are a waste of time. If the client honours it then fine. If he decides not to you are buggered.

I thought the agency were obliged to pay you (as long as you havent opted out)?

[northernladuk]

I think I'm on two week notice so they gotta pay me for two more weeks at least!!!)

Wrong. You are in contract for that period but you get paid for work you do. if they tell you there is no work they are not always obliged to pay you. Notice periods in contracts are a waste of time. If the client honours it then fine. If he decides not to you are buggered.

[kaiser78]

I am contracted to work 9-5.30 & 1hr for lunch. I am normally the last one within my team to arrive in the morning, although traffic allowing am normally in before 9, and whilst I am never the first to leave in the evening am not the last either. The difference is that most of my colleagues live local to our offices, and within walking distance - I have over an hour drive.. So I do keep my hours up and also when I work from home, work an extended day.

Luckily my boss recognises this and is happy with this, especially if I leave before 5.30 having had reduced lunch break etc (which I always do).

[Hex]

LOL. Seems to be some differing opinions.

To be honest, I've tried to fall in line with the permies here for the first few weeks. However, I've found that generally they seem to stroll in when it suits them whereas I'm always here 8-30 or so. Of course, I guess generally no-one notices if you're in early but notices if you leave even 5 mins before anyone.

Neither agency or client has ever discussed hours of work with me so from that I guess they're not that bothered.

I did have a chat with one of the guys I work with and said would I be upsetting anyone if I occasionally worked 8-00 till 4-30 or something. He shrugged and sort of said nah its ok.

Both project manager and team leader are based at another site and only appear occasionally as well.

I guess I'll get used to dealing with these issues after a few more contracts.

Out of interest - is this at a bank in the city? Sounds like one I used to work at that got its fingers burnt bying a dutch bank a few years ago!

[psychocandy]

That one.

LOL. Seems to be some differing opinions.

To be honest, I've tried to fall in line with the permies here for the first few weeks. However, I've found that generally they seem to stroll in when it suits them whereas I'm always here 8-30 or so. Of course, I guess generally no-one notices if you're in early but notices if you leave even 5 mins before anyone.

Neither agency or client has ever discussed hours of work with me so from that I guess they're not that bothered.

I did have a chat with one of the guys I work with and said would I be upsetting anyone if I occasionally worked 8-00 till 4-30 or something. He shrugged and sort of said nah its ok.

Both project manager and team leader are based at another site and only appear occasionally as well.

I guess I'll get used to dealing with these issues after a few more contracts.

[MarillionFan]

How do most of you handle this?

Is it a case of ask the client when they want you in the office? (although isnt this a little anti-IR35)

Or do you just turn up when you want and leave when you want but manage your own time so you do enough hours in the week and/or get the job done?

Or do you ask permission from client to come in early/ leave early etc?

Also, assuming theres nothing urgent going on, do you tend to work over 7.5/8 hours to make a good impression or not bother with things like that?

That one.

[Fred Bloggs]

I go for the first impression counts approach - put a load of hours in first month or so, stay off the web, look keen. Once everyone thinks your amazing then you can really slack off and that great first impression will stick for a hell of a long time before anyone notices. They just assume you must be in a meeting or you started early and just popped out to get coffee etc etc...

Always a good policy. I set out to be Mr Helpful and Cheery personified for the first few weeks, then you can start to relax.

[Stan.goodvibes]

I go for the first impression counts approach - put a load of hours in first month or so, stay off the web, look keen. Once everyone thinks your amazing then you can really slack off and that great first impression will stick for a hell of a long time before anyone notices. They just assume you must be in a meeting or you started early and just popped out to get coffee etc etc...

[psychocandy]

Almost every contract I have done has involed agent saying #client needs you ASAP.

I start and invariably, sit at my desk for several weeks reading manuals / requirements docs etc wondering what was so desperate I had start immediatly for. Drives me insane!!

In terms of hours, I sense the vibe of the place for the first few weeks, then slot into the office pattern. I try to do 8.30 - 5.15pm most days, but if project requires it then I will stay later.

I guess I'm not the only one then !!!!
Same with me agent was really badgering me to start...

No specific hours in my contract - just says day rate. Asked my contact at the agency and they said other contractors here work 8.30 till 6. This I found to be not true but thinking about it the agents going to say that. (i.e. I put in more hours, client happier, same money for agent - I work less hours, client not happy, same money for agent). I have since heard 8 hours (from a different contact at the agency).

Permies here seem to come and go as they please and turn up mostly after 9. I'm in before 9 and often first one here....