Reply to: The Next Agent That Asks Me .......

[dack]

So if it is such acceptable behaviour to obtain leads then why hide the whole process behind a series of lies and misleading requests?I really dont understand it unless the perpetrators know that what they are doing is dishonest. mkaybe they should do what I do and just ask for the information saying that I am doing it because I want to place contractors and make money and by the way there is a drink in it for you. That way they can decide for themselves whether they want to give this information and under what terms.

Exactly!!!!!!

Had this conversation with several agents who've attempted to explain how 'networking' is how this whole contracting game works. So if it's part of the game, like DodgyAgent said, why lie about it?

Agents lie cos they know they're after something for nothing.

[SueEllen]

My qualifications, my experience, and my practical useage of NLP. Simple really.

Jealousy is a terrible thing.

Why is DA jealous?

Some people have charming qualities naturally........

[The Agents View]

I am missing something here. Why is it that you are considered to be an "expert in neurolinguistic influence" () whereas I think you are a bulltulipting tw*t

My qualifications, my experience, and my practical useage of NLP. Simple really.

Jealousy is a terrible thing.

[DodgyAgent]

For your information, I have a degree in human psychology, and am considered an industry expert in neurolinguistic influence, including both emotional intelligence, and body language. You will also notice that my previous post states that every relationship in this environment should be quid pro quo.

I am missing something here. Why is it that you are considered to be an "expert in neurolinguistic influence" () whereas I think you are a bulltulipting tw*t

[DodgyAgent]

.

DA: I can confidently say, that I have never lied to a contractor. I have never lied to a client. I couldn't even be said to have been economical with the truth to them.

Liar

[The Agents View]

So if it is such acceptable behaviour to obtain leads then why hide the whole process behind a series of lies and misleading requests?I really dont understand it unless the perpetrators know that what they are doing is dishonest. mkaybe they should do what I do and just ask for the information saying that I am doing it because I want to place contractors and make money and by the way there is a drink in it for you. That way they can decide for themselves whether they want to give this information and under what terms.

You really do not have the emotional intelligence to understand how human relationships work do you? you do not for example understand the emotional effect lying to people has in order to get information out of them. nor do you understand that the way to influence people is to firstly give them something (respect-calling them back, giving feedback, information, comments about CVs, a lead into a job that you cannot make a fee from-there are many ways). then maybe you can ask for some information inreturn which they may well happily give you.

you have no right to say that people/contractors should just give up information to any tw*t of a recruitment consultant just in order to make the industry go round.

There is a book called 7 habits of highly successful (steven Covey) people which talks extensively about wielding influence. assuming you can read I suggest you buy it.

Firstly, allow me to point out, that my response was made, tongue in cheek, to put the direct opposite view on the person who implied that agents do nothing for thier money.

DA: I can confidently say, that I have never lied to a contractor. I have never lied to a client. I couldn't even be said to have been economical with the truth to them. I am quite structured in my approach. I will NEVER fish for leads with someone I've never spoken to before, and when I do need leads, I am 100% honest about it - this usually comes in the form of people who I have placed, helping me by letting me know who the movers and shakers are.

For your information, I have a degree in human psychology, and am considered an industry expert in neurolinguistic influence, including both emotional intelligence, and body language. You will also notice that my previous post states that every relationship in this environment should be quid pro quo.

I do however maintain, that there is too much of a negative feeling towards Recruitment Consultants building their knowledge and influence in the market place, by extracting information from their relationships. Unfortunately this taints those of us who use up-front, honest methods, with established relationships to collect this information, and puts us all into the same bracket as the cowboys who pull the usual stunts.

Unfortunately, success in this industry is measured in billings, not in the amount of information you can gently extract - and whilst I believe that long term, the strategy of both DA and I, of being up-front and honest is the right way to go, unfortunately, it doesn't yield the instant results which the underhand methods can. Recruitment is my career, and I take it very seriously - however the attrition rate of the industry, means that many people come in, shake the tree, run through relationships like I go through pants, and then move on to another sector - Leaving specialists stereotyped (long term, the underhand methods will bite you in the rear).

Lesson in morals and long term recruitment career planning complete

[SueEllen]

Can you get to the client? - I doubt it
Would you know there was a role? - I doubt it
Would you even have a chance without the agent? - I doubt it
Do you have the in-depth knowledge of who is doing what, which any agent SHOULD have?(they don't always) - I doubt it.
Would a client even speak to you to allow you to take the chance to pitch ?- Absolutely not - they struggle with speaking to people who can offer multiple options, let alone a tin pot contractor who calls out of the blue.

So actually, we've done ALL the groundwork, the knowledge gathering, the intelligence, the cold calling, the agreeing of terms, AND have tracked you down in order to match you to the opportunity - you just turn up, have a quick chat, and expect to take 80% of the rate I get paid by the client for it......

The mistake your making is thinking that all clients require the use of agents to hire contractors - they don't.

Some are happy and able to do the entire process themselves.....

Others don't want to for various reasons. So even if the contractor finds the role themselves with the client, they have no choice but to have an agent in the middle.

Oh and I'm quite happy to give useful leads to people who treat me decently and that includes not lying.

[ShandyDrinker]

Errr... Does the Agent do the interview with the client on your behalf?

Does the agent take your CV along and really sell your skills and experience to the client's interviewer in order to secure that contract for you and only you whilst you sit on your backside at home?

No. Obviously not.

Then they are NOT doing the "sales work" for you at all.

OK, I agree that they are not doing all of the sales work for me but what they are doing is what I believe is the crappy part of the process by either utilising established relationships to generate business/contracts (granted, there has to be a business need requiring a contractor in the first place), cold calling or extracting information out of their existing (or new) contractor base to generate new leads.

I accept that we're the ones who then have to also perform our part in the interview and subsequently have the potential to get shafted by the agent who has put another candidate forward who was equally well liked by the client but is prepared to work cheaper than you or I so will probably be pushed for by the agent as they will make a bigger margin - that's part of the contracting game I really do dislike.

Can you get to the client? - I doubt it
Would you know there was a role? - I doubt it
Would you even have a chance without the agent? - I doubt it
Do you have the in-depth knowledge of who is doing what, which any agent SHOULD have?(they don't always) - I doubt it.
Would a client even speak to you to allow you to take the chance to pitch ?- Absolutely not - they struggle with speaking to people who can offer multiple options, let alone a tin pot contractor who calls out of the blue.

So actually, we've done ALL the groundwork, the knowledge gathering, the intelligence, the cold calling, the agreeing of terms, AND have tracked you down in order to match you to the opportunity - you just turn up, have a quick chat, and expect to take 80% of the rate I get paid by the client for it......

Please get back in your box, and realise that contracts don't just materialise out of thin air. Even with an established client, you can guarantee that hundreds of hours have gone into building the "right to deal". It all costs money - so yes, we do have to charge THE CLIENT for it (remember, it costs you NOTHING). Could value GET any better to a contractor?

Although I agree with some of what you say here I think your turn of phrase is exactly why some contractors really dislike agents! However, although you (the agent) may have spent a significant number of hours securing the role, we don't just "turn up" and expect to take 80% of the rate you get paid. I know I certainly work bloody hard for the 3/6/12 month contract so the proportion of time we spend performing on the contract actually makes the amount of time you (the agent) spends securing the contract in the first place somewhat insignificant. Say you spend 50 hours securing a 6 month contract (being approximately 26 weeks, 8 hours per day, 5 days per week), that is less than 5% of the time I will take doing the work.

So if it is such acceptable behaviour to obtain leads then why hide the whole process behind a series of lies and misleading requests?I really dont understand it unless the perpetrators know that what they are doing is dishonest. mkaybe they should do what I do and just ask for the information saying that I am doing it because I want to place contractors and make money and by the way there is a drink in it for you. That way they can decide for themselves whether they want to give this information and under what terms.

You really do not have the emotional intelligence to understand how human relationships work do you? you do not for example understand the emotional effect lying to people has in order to get information out of them. nor do you understand that the way to influence people is to firstly give them something (respect-calling them back, giving feedback, information, comments about CVs, a lead into a job that you cannot make a fee from-there are many ways). then maybe you can ask for some information inreturn which they may well happily give you.

you have no right to say that people/contractors should just give up information to any tw*t of a recruitment consultant just in order to make the industry go round.

There is a book called 7 habits of highly successful (steven Covey) people which talks extensively about wielding influence. assuming you can read I suggest you buy it.

You are spot on regarding the relationship building aspect... I know I'm more likely to pass on leads to agents I've got/had a good working relationship than some tw*t who phones out of the blue.

The bottom line is that contractors need agents and vice versa unless a contractor really is fortunate enough to be able to go direct... as a result any one party who thinks they're vastly more important than the other is full of sh*t...

I think I've been lucky so far in my contracting career as I've primarily got contracts through existing contacts and have only used 2 recruitment agencies so far... perhaps I'm not as jaded by agents as some people!

[Moscow Mule]

Can you get to the client? - I doubt it
Would you know there was a role? - I doubt it
Would you even have a chance without the agent? - I doubt it
Do you have the in-depth knowledge of who is doing what, which any agent SHOULD have?(they don't always) - I doubt it.
Would a client even speak to you to allow you to take the chance to pitch ?- Absolutely not - they struggle with speaking to people who can offer multiple options, let alone a tin pot contractor who calls out of the blue.

So actually, we've done ALL the groundwork, the knowledge gathering, the intelligence, the cold calling, the agreeing of terms, AND have tracked you down in order to match you to the opportunity - you just turn up, have a quick chat, and expect to take 80% of the rate I get paid by the client for it......

Please get back in your box, and realise that contracts don't just materialise out of thin air. Even with an established client, you can guarantee that hundreds of hours have gone into building the "right to deal". It all costs money - so yes, we do have to charge THE CLIENT for it (remember, it costs you NOTHING). Could value GET any better to a contractor?

Get off your horse mate, it's time for your milk.

The best advice I can give any contractor is to build your network. Never burn your bridges and always act professionally.

I haven't had to deal with an agent to get a job for the last 5 years (I've only been contracting 9 years).

[DodgyAgent]

Can you get to the client? - I doubt it
Would you know there was a role? - I doubt it
Would you even have a chance without the agent? - I doubt it
Do you have the in-depth knowledge of who is doing what, which any agent SHOULD have?(they don't always) - I doubt it.
Would a client even speak to you to allow you to take the chance to pitch ?- Absolutely not - they struggle with speaking to people who can offer multiple options, let alone a tin pot contractor who calls out of the blue.

So actually, we've done ALL the groundwork, the knowledge gathering, the intelligence, the cold calling, the agreeing of terms, AND have tracked you down in order to match you to the opportunity - you just turn up, have a quick chat, and expect to take 80% of the rate I get paid by the client for it......

Please get back in your box, and realise that contracts don't just materialise out of thin air. Even with an established client, you can guarantee that hundreds of hours have gone into building the "right to deal". It all costs money - so yes, we do have to charge THE CLIENT for it (remember, it costs you NOTHING). Could value GET any better to a contractor?

So if it is such acceptable behaviour to obtain leads then why hide the whole process behind a series of lies and misleading requests?I really dont understand it unless the perpetrators know that what they are doing is dishonest. mkaybe they should do what I do and just ask for the information saying that I am doing it because I want to place contractors and make money and by the way there is a drink in it for you. That way they can decide for themselves whether they want to give this information and under what terms.

You really do not have the emotional intelligence to understand how human relationships work do you? you do not for example understand the emotional effect lying to people has in order to get information out of them. nor do you understand that the way to influence people is to firstly give them something (respect-calling them back, giving feedback, information, comments about CVs, a lead into a job that you cannot make a fee from-there are many ways). then maybe you can ask for some information inreturn which they may well happily give you.

you have no right to say that people/contractors should just give up information to any tw*t of a recruitment consultant just in order to make the industry go round.

There is a book called 7 habits of highly successful (steven Covey) people which talks extensively about wielding influence. assuming you can read I suggest you buy it.

[The Agents View]

Errr... Does the Agent do the interview with the client on your behalf?

Does the agent take your CV along and really sell your skills and experience to the client's interviewer in order to secure that contract for you and only you whilst you sit on your backside at home?

No. Obviously not.

Then they are NOT doing the "sales work" for you at all.

Can you get to the client? - I doubt it
Would you know there was a role? - I doubt it
Would you even have a chance without the agent? - I doubt it
Do you have the in-depth knowledge of who is doing what, which any agent SHOULD have?(they don't always) - I doubt it.
Would a client even speak to you to allow you to take the chance to pitch ?- Absolutely not - they struggle with speaking to people who can offer multiple options, let alone a tin pot contractor who calls out of the blue.

So actually, we've done ALL the groundwork, the knowledge gathering, the intelligence, the cold calling, the agreeing of terms, AND have tracked you down in order to match you to the opportunity - you just turn up, have a quick chat, and expect to take 80% of the rate I get paid by the client for it......

Please get back in your box, and realise that contracts don't just materialise out of thin air. Even with an established client, you can guarantee that hundreds of hours have gone into building the "right to deal". It all costs money - so yes, we do have to charge THE CLIENT for it (remember, it costs you NOTHING). Could value GET any better to a contractor?

[SueEllen]

Just like any other industry, there are some cowboys around. For best part of 2 years, my agency played every trick in the book when it came to delaying payments before finally going bust (http://forums.contractoruk.com/busin...gone-bust.html) owing me and 9+ other contractors a tidy sum.

All part of the game .......

I've learnt the hard way if a client or agency plays around with a payment, to talk to them and if no payment appears the next day to send an email asking for the payment and stating that no work will be done until the payment is made.

Interestingly so far all the clients and agencies I have had with clearly defined dispute clauses haven't screwed around with payments.......

[billybiro]

Although like every other contractor I want to get the best possible rate but have to accept that the agent is doing the sales work for me (which having worked in a sales department I can safely say never again) and as such deserves some recompense for the work that I don't want to do myself.

Errr... Does the Agent do the interview with the client on your behalf?

Does the agent take your CV along and really sell your skills and experience to the client's interviewer in order to secure that contract for you and only you whilst you sit on your backside at home?

No. Obviously not.

Then they are NOT doing the "sales work" for you at all.

[dack]

Just like any other industry, there are some cowboys around. For best part of 2 years, my agency played every trick in the book when it came to delaying payments before finally going bust (http://forums.contractoruk.com/busin...gone-bust.html) owing me and 9+ other contractors a tidy sum.

All part of the game .......

[craig1]

Too right. Having been contracting for the last few years I'm always amazed at the animosity towards agents; sure, for some of them the animosity is well founded but in a lot of cases it's a you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours situation.

Although like every other contractor I want to get the best possible rate but have to accept that the agent is doing the sales work for me (which having worked in a sales department I can safely say never again) and as such deserves some recompense for the work that I don't want to do myself.

Agents and agencies are a necessary evil unless you are fortunate enough to have built a big enough contact list to obtain work directly.

There are many good agencies out there who work well with contractors and clients and genuinely add value for their daily rate. The one I'm working through now is like that and I don't grudge them a single penny of their cut.

Then there are some agencies and agents out there who genuinely amaze me that they're still in business. Almost invariably, an agent that annoys contractors will do the same with clients in the long run with sharp practices. They're one reason for PSLs for agencies, clients keep those who will do the job and shut the door firmly on everyone else.

I'll give you an example. In one contract I had in 2006, I had a difficult relationship with the agency who struggled to pay me on time and liked querying timesheets and invoices about 10 minutes before the payment cut-off date for that month. Agency refused to negotiate a rate rise at renewal so I approached client directly and negotiated a £50 a day rise, agency account manager called me the day after my first invoice on the new rate and said that the client had changed their mind on the rise so could I resubmit my invoice on the old rate. I asked client directly who told me the rate was approved and in their system.

Agency refused to pay any invoice at that new rate for the next three months despite billing the client the new rate. Eventually they told me that they were prepared to increase my rate by £20 a day as a "good-will" gesture as the rest of the rate rise was being swallowed by their increased admin costs for my contract as they were having to spend far more time administering me than normal. Again, a discussion with the client brought up that they'd had far too many issues with them and they were being dropped as a supplier. They refused to negotiate a release for me and told me they'd rather lose a pay-off than let me go to another agent for that client, they gave the client an ultimatum, keep them as a supplier or lose me and the other three contractors. Client told them to get stuffed and I had to go find another role.

About four months later, the same agent who placed me the first time called and said he had a great role for me. He got very narked when I told him I'd rather be unemployed than work through them again.