Renewing - handling the agent

[thunderlizard]

I've said this before, but not recently; the only reason I as a hiring manager will consider giving a contractor a rise on rate is if they are performing significantly above the role they were hired to do, or have made a serious contribution that has saved the programme time, money or (preferably) both. Just doing the job very well indeed isn't enough, that's what I'm paying you to do already.

I'm glad you weren't in front of me in the post office queue the day first class stamps went up to forty-six pee.

[PSK]

"If I was super confident I could just lift the phone and secure a better contract I would probably do it".

Trying to be helpful, if you've not yet signed an extension, why don't you see what you can secure quickly. With a CV rewritten in light of the additional experience, capabilities and deliverables you've gained since you joined this client, you might secure a higher rate?

[2BIT]

if you are making significant improvements renew at the same rate as it sounds like the role is allowing you to skill up at the same time (not something most contract roles allow) BUT renegotiate a weeks notice from your end for the extension and then when you stop learning you can go get something at a higher rate - don't worry about what other people get paid - honestly its something only permies worry about

[malvolio]

ty, ty, ty.

wait a minute - this must be sarcasm - right? a clever ruse to lull the newb into a sense of false security before p*ssing on him from a great height?

No, it's exactly what I said. If you can't quantify your added value in terms of money saved, you haven't added anything so why should I spend my profits on you?

Put it this way. I saved one recent client around 8 times my fees for the gig. I wasn't ever gong to renew since the job was done, but if I had I might have had a case for a rate rise of maybe £100 a day. But knowing the budget in question, I rather doubt I would have got it.

It's a tough old world out there. As others have said, if you want more money, you have to take the risk and jump.

[vegan4life]

But based on his own testimony, he has significantly improved what he can offer them.

ty, ty, ty.

wait a minute - this must be sarcasm - right? a clever ruse to lull the newb into a sense of false security before p*ssing on him from a great height?

[vegan4life]

I dont normally agree with you but in this cae, you're spot on.

The OP sounds like, talks like and seems to act like a permie. The OP seems to think that contractors like permie's should get pay rises and performance related pay rises at that!

I dont look for 'pay rises' on contracts. Not too long ago, I finished a stint with the same client for over over 3 years.

I left (when the work dried up) on the same rate as when I walked through the door 3 years previous. I'd gained new skills, become an SME on a couple of systems but I dont see that as any reason for a 'pay rise.'

If I want a 'pay rise' I take my chance in the market place with a new contract. That could be more money the same or even less. That's how it is contracting.

Or perhaps its just me?

Have to be honest, it hacks me off no end when I read sob stories from newbie contractors bleating on about how they started on 'a low rate' to get the job then 6 or 9 months in, demand parity with those around them.

Well, welcome to the real world where you arent protected by 'collective' bargaining like a permie.

If you want that, stay a permie If you want a pay rise, get a new contract.

How many times??? Yes - I agree I still have a bit of an adjustment to make to my new reality.

[d000hg]

I've said this before, but not recently; the only reason I as a hiring manager will consider giving a contractor a rise on rate is if they are performing significantly above the role they were hired to do

But based on his own testimony, he has significantly improved what he can offer them.

[kaiser78]

I guess I asked for this. you are right my choice of words wasn't too smart and tells me I need to adjust my thinking and approach. TBH another 6 months where I am is probably the best option. If I was super confident I could just lift the phone and secure a better contract I would probably do it. And I totally agree that we mostly get paid what we are worth - so no complaints about that (an extra £30 a day would be nice though).

Ask yourself if it is worth the hassle for an extra £30 / day ?

[BolshieBastard]

Stop thinking about grades for a start, they're for permies. You're a contractor, it's all about margins and delivery. Bluntly, you are worth exactly what you get paid.

I've said this before, but not recently; the only reason I as a hiring manager will consider giving a contractor a rise on rate is if they are performing significantly above the role they were hired to do, or have made a serious contribution that has saved the programme time, money or (preferably) both. Just doing the job very well indeed isn't enough, that's what I'm paying you to do already.

The agent is actually right, for once. If you want a rise, you have to demonstrate true added value to the end client. Time to put those BA skills to the test. Or get your client to move you to a new role (and hence a new contract schedule) that warrants a different rate, although personally you would have to have seriously impressed me for me to want to do all that paperwork just so you get more money.

Good luck though, you're against some strong opposition. Not least your own mindset...

HTH

I dont normally agree with you but in this cae, you're spot on.

The OP sounds like, talks like and seems to act like a permie. The OP seems to think that contractors like permie's should get pay rises and performance related pay rises at that!

I dont look for 'pay rises' on contracts. Not too long ago, I finished a stint with the same client for over over 3 years.

I left (when the work dried up) on the same rate as when I walked through the door 3 years previous. I'd gained new skills, become an SME on a couple of systems but I dont see that as any reason for a 'pay rise.'

If I want a 'pay rise' I take my chance in the market place with a new contract. That could be more money the same or even less. That's how it is contracting.

Or perhaps its just me?

Have to be honest, it hacks me off no end when I read sob stories from newbie contractors bleating on about how they started on 'a low rate' to get the job then 6 or 9 months in, demand parity with those around them.

Well, welcome to the real world where you arent protected by 'collective' bargaining like a permie.

If you want that, stay a permie If you want a pay rise, get a new contract.

[vegan4life]

You sound like a disguised permie to me - talk of grades, promotions, pay rise and bosses isn't the language of a contractor.

Anyway - here's your choice.

1) Stay put on what you were paid and doing what you do

2) Ask your client contact (note - not "boss") whether there is scope for you to move onto a different role, which then commands a higher rate

3) Threaten to walk and get an increase either from the client or the agency

4) Threaten to walk and then have to back down when you don't get a rate increase (not a "pay rise"!)

5) Walk because you aren't getting what you want / think you deserve

Start thinking like a business and then decide what is the best course of action for you to take. If you need the experience to command a higher rate in the future, then you may be best getting the experience. If you think that you will walk into another better paid contract, then that might move you one way or another, but just because there are plenty advertised, it doesn't mean that you will get one of them (or even that there are plenty of roles available).

Finally, it doesn't matter what other people get or whether you are "below the standard rate for the role." - you are earning what you negotiated. Nothing more, nothing less. If you are unhappy with the rate, then you either need to negotiate this one better, or move somewhere else that is paying more (not just advertising that it is paying more).

I guess I asked for this. you are right my choice of words wasn't too smart and tells me I need to adjust my thinking and approach. TBH another 6 months where I am is probably the best option. If I was super confident I could just lift the phone and secure a better contract I would probably do it. And I totally agree that we mostly get paid what we are worth - so no complaints about that (an extra £30 a day would be nice though).

[vegan4life]

Stop thinking about grades for a start, they're for permies. You're a contractor, it's all about margins and delivery. Bluntly, you are worth exactly what you get paid.

I've said this before, but not recently; the only reason I as a hiring manager will consider giving a contractor a rise on rate is if they are performing significantly above the role they were hired to do, or have made a serious contribution that has saved the programme time, money or (preferably) both. Just doing the job very well indeed isn't enough, that's what I'm paying you to do already.

The agent is actually right, for once. If you want a rise, you have to demonstrate true added value to the end client. Time to put those BA skills to the test. Or get your client to move you to a new role (and hence a new contract schedule) that warrants a different rate, although personally you would have to have seriously impressed me for me to want to do all that paperwork just so you get more money.

Good luck though, you're against some strong opposition. Not least your own mindset...

HTH

Thanks. Nice to get a hirers perspective. I honestly didn't expect to be 'promoted' as I know the work I have been doing more or less fits the job description. I reckoned if I didn't ask for more I wouldn't get - I just asked (in a friendly way) if there was scope for a rise. I thought I could back it up with examples if I had to but it didn't work out.

Currently I look after 2 workstreams - a business requirements review which means leading workshops between the business and technology. Plus a longer term technology related piece which has me working with technology guys in India - sitting between the Indians and business stakeholders + leading a weekly meeting with the Indians. My PM also has me 'managing' the Indian technology PM. On top of this my PM keep throwing little extra bits of work which I think it shows she has some faith in my abilities to cope and deliver.

TBH I'm not sure where the scope is going to be in the next 6 months to get the opportunity to operate at a significantly higher level that will make guys like you sit up and take notice. I'll just keep my eyes open and try and take whatever opportunity presents itself.

[TheFaQQer]

I am a business analyst with a financial institution. No BA experience before this contract hence I am the lowest grade. Coming from an 'agile' packaged software background I struggled a bit with the way things are done. But now I feel like I am getting better at the job every day.

I renew in a couple of weeks and have been offered another 6 months. This is my third stint so I spoke to my PM and the programme manager who both agreed to support a pay rise because "I am no longer doing ad hoc bits of work and am looking after my own work packages without direction from a senior BA. Also based on length of service???"

The difference between my grade and the grade above is not obvious - quite a few of the guys a grade above have more experience but mostly do exactly the same as me. Working conditions are good, project guys are great and there is reasonable work life balance - i.e. no expectation that you should work extra hours for 'free'. Wouldnt mind another 6 months to consolidate my experience.

Long story short my agent asked me to make a business case for more money. She came back and said the bank thinks my role is 'bang on the money' for my grade - therefore no money. Agent also unwilling to give me a rise out of their margin. To add insult to injury I am 99% confident that I am below the standard rate for the role.

Don't want to go back to my bosses and complain that I am not getting a rise so only option seems to be go back the agent and try and make a better case. Told agent wan't happy and she asked me not to do anything 'rash' - lol . Agent still hasn't come back to ask if I want to accept. Strange thing is that I noticed on the payroll system that my contract expires in October... wtf? There seem to be other jobs out there with better rates so I guess if they don't play ball I can move on.

I know this story has been posted a load of times but would appreciate any advice

You sound like a disguised permie to me - talk of grades, promotions, pay rise and bosses isn't the language of a contractor.

Anyway - here's your choice.

1) Stay put on what you were paid and doing what you do

2) Ask your client contact (note - not "boss") whether there is scope for you to move onto a different role, which then commands a higher rate

3) Threaten to walk and get an increase either from the client or the agency

4) Threaten to walk and then have to back down when you don't get a rate increase (not a "pay rise"!)

5) Walk because you aren't getting what you want / think you deserve

Start thinking like a business and then decide what is the best course of action for you to take. If you need the experience to command a higher rate in the future, then you may be best getting the experience. If you think that you will walk into another better paid contract, then that might move you one way or another, but just because there are plenty advertised, it doesn't mean that you will get one of them (or even that there are plenty of roles available).

Finally, it doesn't matter what other people get or whether you are "below the standard rate for the role." - you are earning what you negotiated. Nothing more, nothing less. If you are unhappy with the rate, then you either need to negotiate this one better, or move somewhere else that is paying more (not just advertising that it is paying more).

[escapeUK]

Agent also unwilling to give me a rise out of their margin. To add insult to injury I am 99% confident that I am below the standard rate for the role.

There seem to be other jobs out there with better rates so I guess if they don't play ball I can move on.

You answered your own question, tell the agent you wont be renewing at the current rate.

Ask them what the business case is for letting someone go they know is good and they want to keep, and taking the risk of someone new, and also maybe another agency winning the contract?

[malvolio]

I am a business analyst with a financial institution. No BA experience before this contract hence I am the lowest grade. Coming from an 'agile' packaged software background I struggled a bit with the way things are done. But now I feel like I am getting better at the job every day.

I renew in a couple of weeks and have been offered another 6 months. This is my third stint so I spoke to my PM and the programme manager who both agreed to support a pay rise because "I am no longer doing ad hoc bits of work and am looking after my own work packages without direction from a senior BA. Also based on length of service???"

The difference between my grade and the grade above is not obvious - quite a few of the guys a grade above have more experience but mostly do exactly the same as me. Working conditions are good, project guys are great and there is reasonable work life balance - i.e. no expectation that you should work extra hours for 'free'. Wouldnt mind another 6 months to consolidate my experience.

Long story short my agent asked me to make a business case for more money. She came back and said the bank thinks my role is 'bang on the money' for my grade - therefore no money. Agent also unwilling to give me a rise out of their margin. To add insult to injury I am 99% confident that I am below the standard rate for the role.

Don't want to go back to my bosses and complain that I am not getting a rise so only option seems to be go back the agent and try and make a better case. Told agent wan't happy and she asked me not to do anything 'rash' - lol . Agent still hasn't come back to ask if I want to accept. Strange thing is that I noticed on the payroll system that my contract expires in October... wtf? There seem to be other jobs out there with better rates so I guess if they don't play ball I can move on.

I know this story has been posted a load of times but would appreciate any advice

Stop thinking about grades for a start, they're for permies. You're a contractor, it's all about margins and delivery. Bluntly, you are worth exactly what you get paid.

I've said this before, but not recently; the only reason I as a hiring manager will consider giving a contractor a rise on rate is if they are performing significantly above the role they were hired to do, or have made a serious contribution that has saved the programme time, money or (preferably) both. Just doing the job very well indeed isn't enough, that's what I'm paying you to do already.

The agent is actually right, for once. If you want a rise, you have to demonstrate true added value to the end client. Time to put those BA skills to the test. Or get your client to move you to a new role (and hence a new contract schedule) that warrants a different rate, although personally you would have to have seriously impressed me for me to want to do all that paperwork just so you get more money.

Good luck though, you're against some strong opposition. Not least your own mindset...

HTH

[vegan4life]

I am a business analyst with a financial institution. No BA experience before this contract hence I am the lowest grade. Coming from an 'agile' packaged software background I struggled a bit with the way things are done. But now I feel like I am getting better at the job every day.

I renew in a couple of weeks and have been offered another 6 months. This is my third stint so I spoke to my PM and the programme manager who both agreed to support a pay rise because "I am no longer doing ad hoc bits of work and am looking after my own work packages without direction from a senior BA. Also based on length of service???"

The difference between my grade and the grade above is not obvious - quite a few of the guys a grade above have more experience but mostly do exactly the same as me. Working conditions are good, project guys are great and there is reasonable work life balance - i.e. no expectation that you should work extra hours for 'free'. Wouldnt mind another 6 months to consolidate my experience.

Long story short my agent asked me to make a business case for more money. She came back and said the bank thinks my role is 'bang on the money' for my grade - therefore no money. Agent also unwilling to give me a rise out of their margin. To add insult to injury I am 99% confident that I am below the standard rate for the role.

Don't want to go back to my bosses and complain that I am not getting a rise so only option seems to be go back the agent and try and make a better case. Told agent wan't happy and she asked me not to do anything 'rash' - lol . Agent still hasn't come back to ask if I want to accept. Strange thing is that I noticed on the payroll system that my contract expires in October... wtf? There seem to be other jobs out there with better rates so I guess if they don't play ball I can move on.

I know this story has been posted a load of times but would appreciate any advice